What gives better MPG, B16 or B20
01-18-2007, 04:08 PM
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What gives better MPG, B16 or B20
I have a unique choice. I have a complete B16A2 swap with 50K on it, and also a new B20B sitting in my shop. The B20 litterally has less than 1K on it. One of these motors is getting put into a 99 DX that we use as a daily driver. It will never see the track. I know an LS trans runs 500 rpm lower than the B16, so in either case, I'm going to use an LS trans I have from a 98 teg.
Now here's my question, does anyone have experience with this set up? And if so, which gives better gas milage/driveability? Getting 30+ mpg has been great! But alas, the D16 non vtech has 290K on it, and frankly, I'd like to finally get up to speed in under an hour .
I have a full blown B20/Vtec in a 92 hatch for the track. So this swap is staying bone stock, aside from a header and 2.5 exhaust the whole way back.
Thanks guys!
Now here's my question, does anyone have experience with this set up? And if so, which gives better gas milage/driveability? Getting 30+ mpg has been great! But alas, the D16 non vtech has 290K on it, and frankly, I'd like to finally get up to speed in under an hour .
I have a full blown B20/Vtec in a 92 hatch for the track. So this swap is staying bone stock, aside from a header and 2.5 exhaust the whole way back.
Thanks guys!
01-18-2007, 04:17 PM
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Re: What gives better MPG, B16 or B20 (justaquestion)
my b16 with a gsr tranny gets 32 mpg all day. of course not going past 5400 
o yea forgot to mention with 110k miles on it
o yea forgot to mention with 110k miles on it
01-18-2007, 05:08 PM
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B16 with an ls tranny is going to move sooo slow you wont be able to stand it.
Troy huh? What are you going to be doing with the d16y7?? Does it run like crap or just high miles?
Troy huh? What are you going to be doing with the d16y7?? Does it run like crap or just high miles?
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01-18-2007, 06:49 PM
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Re: What gives better MPG, B16 or B20 (doood)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by doood »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">mpg depends on how you drive it. you can get similar mpg from either engine.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Agreed.
AT OP:
I'd use the B20. Only because the extra displacement will grant you more torque without having to rev as high. Makes it so that you don't have to put as much as a load on the tranny to get the car to move (think about it in physics terms, obviously an engine with less tq. is going to need to work harder to move the same weight at the same uniform acceleration). So with the B20 you won't need to bash it and downshift at every form of a hill.
The only thing I got against the B16 is it's a rev motor. It's not good for daily driving in my opinion due to it's lowered torque. So what's to keep me from saying a D15 or D16 isn't bad too? It is. Lower torque = more strain on the engine to get the same distance the same speed.
On the same token you're using more displacement which is more gas.
So which one outweighs the other? Depends on how you drive.
I'd go with the B20 because of two reasons: A) It's less stress on the motor, so your motor will last longer (Theoretically, even though the B20's are said to have weaker bottom ends, it shouldn't matter if you're not racing everywhere), and B) I don't know about you but when I drive a 1.6L or the works (D15, D16, B16, one of my friends has a B16b) - all the same, at the slightest sight of a hill they cringe.
Yeah a B16 makes power...at 7500 RPM (exaggeration). You really g2 rev the **** out of any lower displacement motor to make torque, unlike the B20 which you'll have it w/o revving the **** out of it. Which will make you overall have a lighter foot, better MPG.
- Go with the B20. It's better for a stock DD IMO.
Agreed.
AT OP:
I'd use the B20. Only because the extra displacement will grant you more torque without having to rev as high. Makes it so that you don't have to put as much as a load on the tranny to get the car to move (think about it in physics terms, obviously an engine with less tq. is going to need to work harder to move the same weight at the same uniform acceleration). So with the B20 you won't need to bash it and downshift at every form of a hill.
The only thing I got against the B16 is it's a rev motor. It's not good for daily driving in my opinion due to it's lowered torque. So what's to keep me from saying a D15 or D16 isn't bad too? It is. Lower torque = more strain on the engine to get the same distance the same speed.
On the same token you're using more displacement which is more gas.
So which one outweighs the other? Depends on how you drive.
I'd go with the B20 because of two reasons: A) It's less stress on the motor, so your motor will last longer (Theoretically, even though the B20's are said to have weaker bottom ends, it shouldn't matter if you're not racing everywhere), and B) I don't know about you but when I drive a 1.6L or the works (D15, D16, B16, one of my friends has a B16b) - all the same, at the slightest sight of a hill they cringe.
Yeah a B16 makes power...at 7500 RPM (exaggeration). You really g2 rev the **** out of any lower displacement motor to make torque, unlike the B20 which you'll have it w/o revving the **** out of it. Which will make you overall have a lighter foot, better MPG.
- Go with the B20. It's better for a stock DD IMO.
01-18-2007, 07:09 PM
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Re: What gives better MPG, B16 or B20 (CandySol)
Amazing how many people don't read the full posts. The D16 runs like a champ, no tick, no smoke, frankly, I just want to do something with the parts left over from my racing days. Don't want to do a B20/Vtec because I've yet to see one go 100K. I'm 31 years old, so the desire to smoke the car from every light is long gone. I've driven the B16 with an LS in a friends hatch, you really don't notice any diffrence. You just end up reving the motor a little more at start up. And over a d16, the diffrence is still huge!
I'm leaning towards the B20 for the massive torque, etc. But the only thing that makes me thing B16 is the "average" kid will pay more for the car seeing "vtec" when the time comes. If I can find a decent 03 or newer 2 dr accord in a stick, this thing is gone.
I'm leaning towards the B20 for the massive torque, etc. But the only thing that makes me thing B16 is the "average" kid will pay more for the car seeing "vtec" when the time comes. If I can find a decent 03 or newer 2 dr accord in a stick, this thing is gone.
01-18-2007, 08:49 PM
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Re: What gives better MPG, B16 or B20 (justaquestion)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by justaquestion »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Amazing how many people don't read the full posts. The D16 runs like a champ, no tick, no smoke, frankly, I just want to do something with the parts left over from my racing days. Don't want to do a B20/Vtec because I've yet to see one go 100K. I'm 31 years old, so the desire to smoke the car from every light is long gone. I've driven the B16 with an LS in a friends hatch, you really don't notice any diffrence. You just end up reving the motor a little more at start up. And over a d16, the diffrence is still huge!
I'm leaning towards the B20 for the massive torque, etc. But the only thing that makes me thing B16 is the "average" kid will pay more for the car seeing "vtec" when the time comes. If I can find a decent 03 or newer 2 dr accord in a stick, this thing is gone. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Can you include names as to who's not reading?
If I said something that was a result of not-reading I apologize, though I'm kind of confused on who you're talking about.
Stock B20 should be fine, you said you wanted to put a 2.5" all the way back and a header - the more the merrier - might as well throw a short ram on there for ***** and giggles.
I'm leaning towards the B20 for the massive torque, etc. But the only thing that makes me thing B16 is the "average" kid will pay more for the car seeing "vtec" when the time comes. If I can find a decent 03 or newer 2 dr accord in a stick, this thing is gone. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Can you include names as to who's not reading?
If I said something that was a result of not-reading I apologize, though I'm kind of confused on who you're talking about.
Stock B20 should be fine, you said you wanted to put a 2.5" all the way back and a header - the more the merrier - might as well throw a short ram on there for ***** and giggles.
01-18-2007, 08:55 PM
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a B20 with an LS transmission will get around the same MPG as a B16 with a B16 transmission. In fact, the B16 may get a little better. Unfortunately, you need 91 octane in a B16, and 87 for a B20.
01-18-2007, 08:58 PM
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Re: (Eran)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Eran »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">a B20 with an LS transmission will get around the same MPG as a B16 with a B16 transmission. In fact, the B16 may get a little better. Unfortunately, you need 91 octane in a B16, and 87 for a B20.</TD></TR></TABLE>
It depends, if he lives in the utah salt flats, what you're saying might be true, but if he lives in an area like me, B20's gonna rape a B16 in gas mileage, just b/c you need to downshift all the time or keep the RPM higher so the engine actually has power.
You really can't base mpg JUST on displacement.
Though I'm sure you know that.
It depends, if he lives in the utah salt flats, what you're saying might be true, but if he lives in an area like me, B20's gonna rape a B16 in gas mileage, just b/c you need to downshift all the time or keep the RPM higher so the engine actually has power.
You really can't base mpg JUST on displacement.
Though I'm sure you know that.
01-18-2007, 09:02 PM
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Re: (Syndacate)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Syndacate »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It depends, if he lives in the utah salt flats, what you're saying might be true, but if he lives in an area like me, B20's gonna rape a B16 in gas mileage, just b/c you need to downshift all the time or keep the RPM higher so the engine actually has power.
You really can't base mpg JUST on displacement.
Though I'm sure you know that.</TD></TR></TABLE>
1999 Honda Civic Si
Manual: 26 mpg / 21 mpg
1999 Honda CR-V LX
Automatic: : 22 mpg / 25 mpg
Better highway (lower rpm's at high speeds), but less city, due to displacement.
It depends, if he lives in the utah salt flats, what you're saying might be true, but if he lives in an area like me, B20's gonna rape a B16 in gas mileage, just b/c you need to downshift all the time or keep the RPM higher so the engine actually has power.
You really can't base mpg JUST on displacement.
Though I'm sure you know that.</TD></TR></TABLE>
1999 Honda Civic Si
Manual: 26 mpg / 21 mpg
1999 Honda CR-V LX
Automatic: : 22 mpg / 25 mpg
Better highway (lower rpm's at high speeds), but less city, due to displacement.
01-18-2007, 10:38 PM
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Re: (Eran)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Eran »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
1999 Honda Civic Si
Manual: 26 mpg / 21 mpg
1999 Honda CR-V LX
Automatic: : 22 mpg / 25 mpg
Better highway (lower rpm's at high speeds), but less city, due to displacement.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Keep in mind that a CRV is alot heavier than a Civic. That should cut down the gas usage quite a bit.
1999 Honda Civic Si
Manual: 26 mpg / 21 mpg
1999 Honda CR-V LX
Automatic: : 22 mpg / 25 mpg
Better highway (lower rpm's at high speeds), but less city, due to displacement.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Keep in mind that a CRV is alot heavier than a Civic. That should cut down the gas usage quite a bit.
01-18-2007, 10:54 PM
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Re: (Dann6968)
About ~500 more or less for a CR-V over an Si. That's is quite a bit, but probably only a 5 mpg on your best day.
How you drive it makes a load of difference too. With an Si, you have to burp into 3.4K regularly, even with normal driving. Hell, at highway speeds, you could even hit 4K or more. This is taken into account when calculating the B16A's gas mileage.
With a B20 and LS tranny, you can achieve the same normal driving while never going above 3K on the street, and maybe 3.3K tops during highway driving. If you push a B20 to those revs as much as one would push a B16A, your fuel mileage would take a significant hit.
Driving like an asshat and revving all the time will kill your fuel consumption.
How you drive it makes a load of difference too. With an Si, you have to burp into 3.4K regularly, even with normal driving. Hell, at highway speeds, you could even hit 4K or more. This is taken into account when calculating the B16A's gas mileage.
With a B20 and LS tranny, you can achieve the same normal driving while never going above 3K on the street, and maybe 3.3K tops during highway driving. If you push a B20 to those revs as much as one would push a B16A, your fuel mileage would take a significant hit.
Driving like an asshat and revving all the time will kill your fuel consumption.
01-18-2007, 11:30 PM
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Re: What gives better MPG, B16 or B20 (Rev2Eight_EM1)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Rev2Eight_EM1 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">use the b20. Torquey and practical, plus you wont need to fill it up with premium </TD></TR></TABLE>
Agreed 100%.
85 octane = 20-30 cents cheaper per gallon
Agreed 100%.
85 octane = 20-30 cents cheaper per gallon
01-18-2007, 11:32 PM
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Re: What gives better MPG, B16 or B20 (.ken)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .ken »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Agreed 100%.
85 octane = 20-30 cents cheaper per gallon</TD></TR></TABLE>
Gotta love low compression
Agreed 100%.
85 octane = 20-30 cents cheaper per gallon</TD></TR></TABLE>
Gotta love low compression
01-19-2007, 02:37 PM
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Re: What gives better MPG, B16 or B20 (Eran)
I live over in detroit, so a lot of highway driving etc. You guys have been helpful, this is pretty much the argument I've had with myself. See I have several honda's, like I said, been doing this a long time. I actually have a 1996 Black CRV, The thing is a TURD. Its only 500-600 lbs heavier, but its got the aerodynamics of a toaster. I've gotten below 20mph on a good windy day in that. But on a normal day, it pulls 24-26 mpg. I just upgraded to a newer full size toyota if anyone needs a clean 4 wheel drive. It just won't set any speed records.
Plus my B20 litterally still has the inspection paint on the bolt heads. Michigan State and Lawrence tech converted a couple of CRV's to electric motors a few years back, and luckily, my gf at the time was one of the students. So I scammed three of these for 400 bucks each
. One was sold in my old drag hatch (b20/Vtec) and the one before it went up in smoke when a rod let loose (13:1 B20/Vtec, spraying was just suicide). And yes, it was sleeved.
I know it causes detonation etc etc, but I've seen a few guys run B16's on regular and retard them a few degree's. Oh, here's another quickie, I've never dyno'd the diffrence, but does a larger throttle body have any impact on MPG? I have a JG mainfold off a built LS, but it had a 68mm TB on it. The TB is gone, but I've seen them on ebay for 100 or so.
I know most guys swap for pure power, but daily driving and reliabilty is much more important to me. All I need is for it to pass people without needing the 1/2 mile run up, or dropping it to third
Plus my B20 litterally still has the inspection paint on the bolt heads. Michigan State and Lawrence tech converted a couple of CRV's to electric motors a few years back, and luckily, my gf at the time was one of the students. So I scammed three of these for 400 bucks each
. One was sold in my old drag hatch (b20/Vtec) and the one before it went up in smoke when a rod let loose (13:1 B20/Vtec, spraying was just suicide). And yes, it was sleeved. I know it causes detonation etc etc, but I've seen a few guys run B16's on regular and retard them a few degree's. Oh, here's another quickie, I've never dyno'd the diffrence, but does a larger throttle body have any impact on MPG? I have a JG mainfold off a built LS, but it had a 68mm TB on it. The TB is gone, but I've seen them on ebay for 100 or so.
I know most guys swap for pure power, but daily driving and reliabilty is much more important to me. All I need is for it to pass people without needing the 1/2 mile run up, or dropping it to third
01-19-2007, 03:17 PM
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Re: What gives better MPG, B16 or B20 (Eran)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Eran »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Gotta love low compression</TD></TR></TABLE>
Even a stock B20/vtec wont need premium.
Gotta love low compression
</TD></TR></TABLE>Even a stock B20/vtec wont need premium.
01-19-2007, 03:19 PM
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Re: What gives better MPG, B16 or B20 (my_slow_civic)
i think my B20 w/ ITR trans gets better gas milage than it did w/ the LS trans. but 87oct is a major plus! 
01-19-2007, 03:25 PM
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Re: What gives better MPG, B16 or B20 (justaquestion)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Eran »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
1999 Honda Civic Si
Manual: 26 mpg / 21 mpg
1999 Honda CR-V LX
Automatic: : 22 mpg / 25 mpg
Better highway (lower rpm's at high speeds), but less city, due to displacement.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Numbers don't mean ****. Actual is what does.
@ OP:
I, myself, am a fan of the LS motors - they make great daily driver in my humble opinion. Just a regular old stock LS motor. I still say B20 over B16 as a daily driver, especially since you live in a city like detroit. I wouldn't prefer to have to stab the throttle to actually get some place like you do with the B16
IMO it doesn't pull that much power over a D series before VTEC.
Tq. = Thx in a DD, B20 or LS FTW.
1999 Honda Civic Si
Manual: 26 mpg / 21 mpg
1999 Honda CR-V LX
Automatic: : 22 mpg / 25 mpg
Better highway (lower rpm's at high speeds), but less city, due to displacement.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Numbers don't mean ****. Actual is what does.
@ OP:
I, myself, am a fan of the LS motors - they make great daily driver in my humble opinion. Just a regular old stock LS motor. I still say B20 over B16 as a daily driver, especially since you live in a city like detroit. I wouldn't prefer to have to stab the throttle to actually get some place like you do with the B16
IMO it doesn't pull that much power over a D series before VTEC.
Tq. = Thx in a DD, B20 or LS FTW.
01-20-2007, 05:59 PM
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Re: What gives better MPG, B16 or B20 (justaquestion)
Looks like B20 has it! If I could ever find a really reliable B20/Vtec, that would be great. But they always seem to have issues, either oil leaks or something. Who knows, I've started 2 other "stock" builds, and in the middle both, ended up tearing the motors apart and building them. Heck if anyone is interested, I have three 13:1 endyne pistons left from the last b20 that went kapoof. I have the fourth piston as well, it just has a small grove where it slapped the valve.
01-20-2007, 09:47 PM
#25
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Re: What gives better MPG, B16 or B20 (justaquestion)
The B20B/Z will get better real-world mileage in a Civic, though it won't be a huge difference (15% at best). It also takes cheaper 87 octane, as opposed to 91 minimum for the B16A.
I averaged about 29-30 MPG combined on 93 octane in my '00 Civic Si, and have seen B18A/B-swapped hatchbacks do as high as 35. You should be able to average over 30 easily on 87 octane with a B20.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Eran »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1999 Honda Civic Si
Manual: 26 mpg / 21 mpg
1999 Honda CR-V LX
Automatic: : 22 mpg / 25 mpg
Better highway (lower rpm's at high speeds), but less city, due to displacement.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You can't really directly compare those numbers. Not only is the CR-V significantly heavier and less aerodynamic, but those numbers are for a 4-speed automatic model as opposed to a 5-speed manual (mileage would depend on which gearing he'd use). There may also be a mileage difference between B20B and B20Z engines ('97-98 has the B and '99-01 has the Z).
Also, that isn't the correct highway number for the EM1. I believe it was 26/31.
I averaged about 29-30 MPG combined on 93 octane in my '00 Civic Si, and have seen B18A/B-swapped hatchbacks do as high as 35. You should be able to average over 30 easily on 87 octane with a B20.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Eran »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">1999 Honda Civic Si
Manual: 26 mpg / 21 mpg
1999 Honda CR-V LX
Automatic: : 22 mpg / 25 mpg
Better highway (lower rpm's at high speeds), but less city, due to displacement.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You can't really directly compare those numbers. Not only is the CR-V significantly heavier and less aerodynamic, but those numbers are for a 4-speed automatic model as opposed to a 5-speed manual (mileage would depend on which gearing he'd use). There may also be a mileage difference between B20B and B20Z engines ('97-98 has the B and '99-01 has the Z).
Also, that isn't the correct highway number for the EM1. I believe it was 26/31.