What else to replace while doing Full Headset - Honda-Tech


What else to replace while doing Full Headset

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Old 02-12-2017, 02:09 AM   #1
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Default What else to replace while doing Full Headset

Pulling the head out of my D15B7 with a blown head(I guess) either that or blown exhaust gasket and getting it machined, got a full headset, all the gaskets, should I do T-belt and waterpump? Anything else while I'm at it? I plan on doing a full fluid service, including radiator as well. So please feel free to throw some info out there thanks

180k Miles
17" wheels
2" drop
straight pipe
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Old 02-12-2017, 04:13 AM   #2
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If your engine overheated then more than likely head is warped so the machine shop will clean it (hot tank), mill it (resurface), inspect for cracks and check for valve leaks. If there are valve leaks (most likely) then the machinist will suggest either a lapp valve job or 3-angle valve job (cost more). While the head is at the machine shop it's a good time to install new valve stem seals. The OEM seals are inexpensive..shop online. Go with an OEM head gasket.Will most likely need an intake manifold gasket as they get brittle and stick to mating surfaces. New head bolts aren't necessary but, are inexpensive and good practice.

If you don't know when/mileage the timing belt was last replaced then it's a good time to do it after the head is installed. Timing belt kit: timing belt, tensioner, water pump. Also, a good time to replace thermostat and accessory belts (ac,ps,alternator).

Make sure that the block's bolt holes that receive the head bolts are as clean and dry as possible before inserting head bolts. If those holes are wet (oil, water or cleaner) it could cause issues. Spray them with brake cleaner and use compressed air to clean and dry. Do not let the intake manifold rest/lean back or could break knock sensor. Bungy cord the intake manifold to suspend it upwards or remove it . Follow service manual and watch these videos for great tips:

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Old 02-12-2017, 07:57 AM   #3
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I will disagree with one part of Jimi's post.

On the D15B7, don't go with the OEM gasket unless it's the leak gasket, which does require new head bolts.

OEM for the D15B7 is the graphite gasket that is known to leak. The leak gasket is the 5 layer MLS gasket that you want for the D15B7.

Using the 3 layer MLS gasket that is used on the D16Y8 will cause pinging problems and you will have to retard your ignition timing by another 2 degrees or so.

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Looks like benardi parts still has them in stock:
http://www.bernardiparts.com/Honda-G...1-P01-004.aspx

Found it on amazon.com via parts geek Ishino part number lookup:
Amazon Amazon

Ishino part number: W0133-1621414

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Old 02-12-2017, 08:58 AM   #4
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Default Re: What else to replace while doing Full Headset

Don't spend a lot of money until you know the engine isn't toast. I would just replace the head gasket and maybe the bolts but reuse ALL the old parts until I saw it's going to run OK. Then come back for timing belt job and valve cover, intake or exhaust gaskets if they leak. Everything on these cars is out in the open and easy to take apart there isn't much sense in the "better replace this too, while it's taken apart..." mentality.
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Old 02-12-2017, 09:09 AM   #5
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Default Re: What else to replace while doing Full Headset

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Using the 3 layer MLS gasket that is used on the D16Y8 will cause pinging problems and you will have to retard your ignition timing by another 2 degrees or so.
Never heard that one before, isn't the 3 layer the same as the z6 head gasket?
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Old 02-12-2017, 01:54 PM   #6
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Never heard that one before, isn't the 3 layer the same as the z6 head gasket?
I would think so. Interestingly enough, Felpro has different part numbers for the D16Z6 and the D16Y8. In my area, the Y8 was a little cheaper so I bought it and I had problems with my D15B7 pinging at WOT high RPM, climbing hills etc. Retarding the ignition timing by 2 more degrees helped make it manageable.

After looking into squish zones and quench, I figured out what I think as to why. The D15B7 piston goes to .002" deck height so almost perfectly level with the deck. The head gasket is what is basically setting your squish and quench zones.

Ideal quench zones are between .035"-0.40".

The D16Y8 felpro gasket is a thinner gasket than the stock graphite D15B7 gasket. The leak gasket being a 5 layer is likely creating that .035" quench zone when compressed much like the graphite gasket does.

Needless to say, the only reason why I know is I tried the D16Y8 gasket first hand and man I was pinging pretty bad at stock ignition timing after changing my head gasket.

Then I used the leak gasket on my wife's B7 and it had no issues like mine.
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Old 02-12-2017, 02:56 PM   #7
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Pulling the head out of my D15B7 with a blown head(I guess) either that or blown exhaust gasket and getting it machined, got a full headset, all the gaskets, should I do T-belt and waterpump? Anything else while I'm at it? I plan on doing a full fluid service, including radiator as well. So please feel free to throw some info out there thanks

180k Miles
17" wheels
2" drop
straight pipe

Hey there!
I just did my head gasket on my 98 Civic Ex (d16y8). I spent around $500-600 on parts (all oem Honda parts) including the head being resurfaced and machine work. Keep in mind that I did a lot more than JUST the head gasket. I resealed everything and replaced stuff like oil pump, oil pan, etc. I would recommend resealing the engine and depending on how far you go with this and if your pistons are easy accessible, replace your piston rings.
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Old 02-12-2017, 06:18 PM   #8
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depending on how far you go with this and if your pistons are easy accessible, replace your piston rings.
There is a lot more to rings than just replacing them. You just don't go replacing your piston rings. You measure everything, rebore if required, hone, new pistons and rings is recommended, all new bearings and then assemble and break in.

Simply, if you want to do the rings, you are talking a full bottom end rebuild.

Redoing all the seals in the motor is one thing, rebuilding the bottom end is a whole different ball of wax and can of worms.
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Old 02-12-2017, 11:17 PM   #9
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Default Re: What else to replace while doing Full Headset

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Originally Posted by Jimi Hondrix View Post
If your engine overheated then more than likely head is warped so the machine shop will clean it (hot tank), mill it (resurface), inspect for cracks and check for valve leaks. If there are valve leaks (most likely) then the machinist will suggest either a lapp valve job or 3-angle valve job (cost more). While the head is at the machine shop it's a good time to install new valve stem seals. The OEM seals are inexpensive..shop online. Go with an OEM head gasket.Will most likely need an intake manifold gasket as they get brittle and stick to mating surfaces. New head bolts aren't necessary but, are inexpensive and good practice.

If you don't know when/mileage the timing belt was last replaced then it's a good time to do it after the head is installed. Timing belt kit: timing belt, tensioner, water pump. Also, a good time to replace thermostat and accessory belts (ac,ps,alternator).

Make sure that the block's bolt holes that receive the head bolts are as clean and dry as possible before inserting head bolts. If those holes are wet (oil, water or cleaner) it could cause issues. Spray them with brake cleaner and use compressed air to clean and dry. Do not let the intake manifold rest/lean back or could break knock sensor. Bungy cord the intake manifold to suspend it upwards or remove it . Follow service manual and watch these videos for great tips:
Thanks for the reply. The coolant level has never gone below the radiator cap and has NEVER overheated. My mechanic thinks it's an exhaust gasket. Which is really confusing. But that COULD explain the extremely low compression in Cylinder #2 and no power. Lol. But I figure why not pull it out and re do some stuff.

Any more tips ?

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Old 02-13-2017, 07:16 AM   #10
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Default Re: What else to replace while doing Full Headset

I would suggest doing a leak down test to see if you can isolate the problem with cylinder #2.

Either bad valve seating or the rings have given up in #2 or there is a crack in the block or head.

The head gasket seems to be doing fine as your coolant overflow would be over flowing if it was the head gasket causing the no power in #2. Or you would have milky oil (creamed coffee look).

Unfortunately, those items to be repaired means a new head gasket along with a bunch of other work depending.

Leak down test will usually help identify the problem before taking the motor apart.

Oh in all honesty, your mechanic seems questionable in their diagnostic capability if they think an exhaust gasket is going to cause #2 to be powerless no compression.
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Old 02-13-2017, 09:22 AM   #11
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Default Re: What else to replace while doing Full Headset

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Oh in all honesty, your mechanic seems questionable in their diagnostic capability if they think an exhaust gasket is going to cause #2 to be powerless no compression.
x2. This does not make sense to me, but you better figure out the issue w/ #2...
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Old 02-13-2017, 10:53 AM   #12
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There is a lot more to rings than just replacing them. You just don't go replacing your piston rings. You measure everything, rebore if required, hone, new pistons and rings is recommended, all new bearings and then assemble and break in.

Simply, if you want to do the rings, you are talking a full bottom end rebuild.

Redoing all the seals in the motor is one thing, rebuilding the bottom end is a whole different ball of wax and can of worms.
YesI agree and understand all of the circumstances. I also understand that it can be more than just piston rings. That's why I originally stated "Depending on how far you want to go."
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Old 02-13-2017, 12:54 PM   #13
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Do a dry and wet (table spoon of oil) compression test. If compression rises during wet part of test the rings are most likely the issue. Better yet, as mentioned by Tomcat, get a leak-down test done to rule out compression loss from rings, valves or head gasket.
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Old 02-13-2017, 03:38 PM   #14
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+1 on a new mechanic.

It could just be a valve is too tight. Take the valve cover off. Turn the engine by hand until all 4 valves on #2 are up. Check that the rocker arms have some slack in them, i.e. you can wiggle it up and down and make a gap between the adjuster screw on the arm and the top of the valve stem. This is best done with the engine hot because the valves get tighter as it warms up. But if you are going to adjust the valve clearance to spec, the engine has to be cold.

Like Hondrix said, if the compression goes way up in the wet test, the rings are shot and you are probably better off with a new engine. If that is the case you would also notice it is burning oil and smokes worse when you floor it.
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Old 02-15-2017, 12:34 AM   #15
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I would suggest doing a leak down test to see if you can isolate the problem with cylinder #2.

Either bad valve seating or the rings have given up in #2 or there is a crack in the block or head.

The head gasket seems to be doing fine as your coolant overflow would be over flowing if it was the head gasket causing the no power in #2. Or you would have milky oil (creamed coffee look).

Unfortunately, those items to be repaired means a new head gasket along with a bunch of other work depending.

Leak down test will usually help identify the problem before taking the motor apart.

Oh in all honesty, your mechanic seems questionable in their diagnostic capability if they think an exhaust gasket is going to cause #2 to be powerless no compression.
He did do a leak down test and the compression didn't go up, maybe it's not an exahust gasket I might just not be repeating the correct term it was a couple months ago I will ask him
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Old 02-15-2017, 04:46 AM   #16
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The only gasket that will affect the compression is the head gasket.

They can blow out two ways -- either between two cylinders, causing low compression in two adjacent cylinders, or from a cylinder to the water jacket, which also causes serious cooling system problems. It sounds like your car has neither of these.
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Old 02-15-2017, 09:22 PM   #17
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The only gasket that will affect the compression is the head gasket.

They can blow out two ways -- either between two cylinders, causing low compression in two adjacent cylinders, or from a cylinder to the water jacket, which also causes serious cooling system problems. It sounds like your car has neither of these.
The only low compression is in Cylinder #3

I forgot to mention that, google says either rings or valves, but he put oil in it for the compression test and the numbers didn't go up. When we did a leak down test we could hear air from out of my exhaust pipe
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Old 02-15-2017, 10:20 PM   #18
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The only low compression is in Cylinder #3

I forgot to mention that, google says either rings or valves, but he put oil in it for the compression test and the numbers didn't go up. When we did a leak down test we could hear air from out of my exhaust pipe
So, is it #2 or is it #3? You can't seem to relay consistent information. This will make things confusing.

Air out the exhaust and wet test does nothing, it's not the rings and it's in the head with an exhaust valve not seating or if it's seating, not sealing due to being burnt.
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Old 02-15-2017, 10:22 PM   #19
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The only low compression is in Cylinder #3

I forgot to mention that, google says either rings or valves, but he put oil in it for the compression test and the numbers didn't go up. When we did a leak down test we could hear air from out of my exhaust pipe
Leaking exhaust valve(s). Will need valve job. Hopefully none of the valves are bent so they can be cleaned and used again. Get a new set of stem seals as well.
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Old 02-15-2017, 10:58 PM   #20
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So, is it #2 or is it #3? You can't seem to relay consistent information. This will make things confusing.

Air out the exhaust and wet test does nothing, it's not the rings and it's in the head with an exhaust valve not seating or if it's seating, not sealing due to being burnt.
I couldn't tell you, it's been a couple months. It's one cylinder and either the 2nd or 3rd

Does it make a difference? Are the cylinders have different purposes? Are 2 of them intake and 2 of them exhaust? Is that why?

So for sure I'm looking at a valve job

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Leaking exhaust valve(s). Will need valve job. Hopefully none of the valves are bent so they can be cleaned and used again. Get a new set of stem seals as well.
So either way the head is going to a machine shop, so I should do a gasket set anyway? I've already got it sitting in my room. The machinist said valves are like 5 bucks each. Should I just replace them all and get the stem seals and call it good? Then do all new gaskets on everything as it goes back?
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Old 02-16-2017, 12:02 AM   #21
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So for sure I'm looking at a valve job
Yes.

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So either way the head is going to a machine shop, so I should do a gasket set anyway? I've already got it sitting in my room. The machinist said valves are like 5 bucks each. Should I just replace them all and get the stem seals and call it good? Then do all new gaskets on everything as it goes back?
Should you replace the headgasket? It's not a choice at this point..you must replace the head gasket. OEM valves are between $20 and $30 a piece. I think the machinist will clean and polish them for $5 each or possibly aftermarket valves are that price but, skeptical. There's no harm in re-using the current valves as long as they are not damaged in any way. Watch videos on valve-lapping to get an idea what will be done by the machinist. When you get the head back on and everything back together ..do a valve adjustment before installing the valve cover.
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Old 02-16-2017, 01:32 AM   #22
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Yes.



Should you replace the headgasket? It's not a choice at this point..you must replace the head gasket. OEM valves are between $20 and $30 a piece. I think the machinist will clean and polish them for $5 each or possibly aftermarket valves are that price but, skeptical. There's no harm in re-using the current valves as long as they are not damaged in any way. Watch videos on valve-lapping to get an idea what will be done by the machinist. When you get the head back on and everything back together ..do a valve adjustment before installing the valve cover.
Yeah I bought this a while back, won't hurt to do all of them right?
https://www.detotiauto.com/fits-hond...asket-set.html

Should I order OEM valves and bring them to the machinist and have him put them in or just have him replace with what he has? He might have said 12$ a piece but I can't forsure remember correctly.
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Old 02-16-2017, 04:23 AM   #23
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Check the valve adjustment before doing anything else.
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Old 02-16-2017, 04:33 AM   #24
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Check the valve adjustment before doing anything else.
Can that be done before pulling the head
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Old 02-16-2017, 05:11 AM   #25
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Yes, do it while the engine is cold, not warmed up. Park it over night.
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