Welp...my mini-me won't start. Lotttts of questions!
06-14-2006, 06:29 PM
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Welp...my mini-me won't start. Lotttts of questions!
I just finished (well almost) my Z6/B7 mini me but it won't start! I have no CEL. It does turn over and it sends air out the exhaust. I don't think anything is combusting though. I did some searching and came up with hella suggestions but I don't know how to go about doing a lot of them. And does anyone have any additional suggestions??
Here is what I've checked so far:
1) spark - pulled the #2 plug and got a very faint spark...is that the problem? I have new wires and new platinum NGK plugs which the box says NOT to try to gap
2) fuel - fuel leaked out when loosened a bolt on the fuel rail, and spark plugs smelled like gas when I pulled them.
3) timing - I reinstalled the timing belt (yea the WHOLE process) and made sure the cam and crank are both at TDC. Also pulled the dizzy cap and it was pointing to #1 spark plug at TDC.
4) firing order -
it's all good 4-3-2-1 left to right
3 top
14 mid
2 bottom
5) grounds - the only ground disconnected during the swap was the valve cover, and I reconnected that
5) battery - I hooked up another car to my battery for extra juice...not sure if that even helps though
6) exhaust - I'm getting air out the tail pipe with cranking, so no clogs
Here is what I haven't tried for whatever reason:
1) compression test (don't have access to the tools)
2) starter fluid (does it work on fuel injected cars, or what?)
done->3) messing with the dizzy - it's all good
done->4) TPS and MAP plugs - They're in the right spots!!
5) when I wired the vtec oil sensor, I ran the blue/with black line wire to a ground on the valve cover and the yellow/with black line wire to the ECU...could they be mixed up? would that even affect starting?
6) cleaning injectors (I'm getting fuel, so it's probably pointless)
done->7) fuses - all intact from what I can see
done->8) clamping the fuel line to the fuel rail - tried it a million different ways
9) "checking" compression by feeling for air when plugs are pulled
10) swap ECU
11) swap dizzy
12) engine flooding with fuel....wtf do I do about THAT
done-> 13) check ignition coil - replaced it, no help
The first time I cranked it, it made a high pitch squeaking sound which I am almost sure was the piston rings on the dry cyl walls. So I squirted a small amount of 3 in 1 and motor oil mixture in the chambers through the spark plug holes to try and lubricate the pistons a little. It still squeaks though, so that was dumb. Maybe that's preventing it from starting up?
Other info... I don't think the head I used had been run in a while. It was pretty dry, but I assumed adding motor oil would be enough to lubricate things. It was $125 from a vouched HT user, but maybe it's no good? Any suggestions whatsoever are greatttttly appreciated. I'm sure other people know how it feels to slave over a project for weeks only for it to not start up!
Modified by ZeeSix at 7:16 PM 6/17/2006
Here is what I've checked so far:
1) spark - pulled the #2 plug and got a very faint spark...is that the problem? I have new wires and new platinum NGK plugs which the box says NOT to try to gap
2) fuel - fuel leaked out when loosened a bolt on the fuel rail, and spark plugs smelled like gas when I pulled them.
3) timing - I reinstalled the timing belt (yea the WHOLE process) and made sure the cam and crank are both at TDC. Also pulled the dizzy cap and it was pointing to #1 spark plug at TDC.
4) firing order -
it's all good 4-3-2-1 left to right
3 top
14 mid
2 bottom
5) grounds - the only ground disconnected during the swap was the valve cover, and I reconnected that
5) battery - I hooked up another car to my battery for extra juice...not sure if that even helps though
6) exhaust - I'm getting air out the tail pipe with cranking, so no clogs
Here is what I haven't tried for whatever reason:
1) compression test (don't have access to the tools)
2) starter fluid (does it work on fuel injected cars, or what?)
done->3) messing with the dizzy - it's all good
done->4) TPS and MAP plugs - They're in the right spots!!
5) when I wired the vtec oil sensor, I ran the blue/with black line wire to a ground on the valve cover and the yellow/with black line wire to the ECU...could they be mixed up? would that even affect starting?
6) cleaning injectors (I'm getting fuel, so it's probably pointless)
done->7) fuses - all intact from what I can see
done->8) clamping the fuel line to the fuel rail - tried it a million different ways
9) "checking" compression by feeling for air when plugs are pulled
10) swap ECU
11) swap dizzy
12) engine flooding with fuel....wtf do I do about THAT
done-> 13) check ignition coil - replaced it, no help
The first time I cranked it, it made a high pitch squeaking sound which I am almost sure was the piston rings on the dry cyl walls. So I squirted a small amount of 3 in 1 and motor oil mixture in the chambers through the spark plug holes to try and lubricate the pistons a little. It still squeaks though, so that was dumb. Maybe that's preventing it from starting up?
Other info... I don't think the head I used had been run in a while. It was pretty dry, but I assumed adding motor oil would be enough to lubricate things. It was $125 from a vouched HT user, but maybe it's no good? Any suggestions whatsoever are greatttttly appreciated. I'm sure other people know how it feels to slave over a project for weeks only for it to not start up!
Modified by ZeeSix at 7:16 PM 6/17/2006
06-14-2006, 06:56 PM
#2
Re: Welp...my mini-me won't start. Lotttts of questions! (ZeeSix)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ZeeSix »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
3) timing - the crank and cam were both at TDC before I put the belt on, so shouldn't the car at least run crappy, or sputter?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I would make sure the timing is correct this isn't enough evidence to prove its on time.
3) timing - the crank and cam were both at TDC before I put the belt on, so shouldn't the car at least run crappy, or sputter?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I would make sure the timing is correct this isn't enough evidence to prove its on time.
06-14-2006, 07:03 PM
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Re: Welp...my mini-me won't start. Lotttts of questions! (Slamaccord)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Slamaccord »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would make sure the timing is correct this isn't enough evidence to prove its on time.</TD></TR></TABLE>
How should I do that? I was under the impression that I could just "eyeball" things so it would run choppy and from there I could adjust timing as necessary. I didn't think a timing gun was 100% necessary.
Twisting the dizzy and experimenting with the timing belt teeth are my top 2 things to do tomm morning.
How should I do that? I was under the impression that I could just "eyeball" things so it would run choppy and from there I could adjust timing as necessary. I didn't think a timing gun was 100% necessary.
Twisting the dizzy and experimenting with the timing belt teeth are my top 2 things to do tomm morning.
06-14-2006, 07:16 PM
#4
Re: Welp...my mini-me won't start. Lotttts of questions! (ZeeSix)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ZeeSix »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
experimenting with the timing belt teeth are my top 2 things to do tomm morning. </TD></TR></TABLE>
That should be first on your list.
Check for spark and fuel first.
Make sure you have the correct firing order.
Move on to the timing.
Compression test.
experimenting with the timing belt teeth are my top 2 things to do tomm morning. </TD></TR></TABLE>
That should be first on your list.
Check for spark and fuel first.
Make sure you have the correct firing order.
Move on to the timing.
Compression test.
06-14-2006, 07:19 PM
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Re: Welp...my mini-me won't start. Lotttts of questions! (Slamaccord)
try clamping the fuel line, when i first swapped mine, i went through numerous ways of trying to get it started and it ended up it was flooding itself, especially with you having weak spark. but i would try that first. and as i said, mini me swaps are off default by 4.75 degrees, so i am told.
06-14-2006, 07:32 PM
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Re: Welp...my mini-me won't start. Lotttts of questions! (bmw626)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bmw626 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">try clamping the fuel line, when i first swapped mine, i went through numerous ways of trying to get it started and it ended up it was flooding itself, especially with you having weak spark. but i would try that first. and as i said, mini me swaps are off default by 4.75 degrees, so i am told.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I actually just read your entire 5 page mini me thread. It was depressing. I'll def give the fuel clamping a try! The spark plugs are absolutely drenched, so that could very well be the problem.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Slamaccord »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Check for spark and fuel first.
Make sure you have the correct firing order.
Move on to the timing.
Compression test.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well, I just checked again for spark. They're all pretty good. Firing order is correct.
PS- I've heard ppl say "check your relays." What exactly does that mean?
I actually just read your entire 5 page mini me thread. It was depressing. I'll def give the fuel clamping a try! The spark plugs are absolutely drenched, so that could very well be the problem.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Slamaccord »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Check for spark and fuel first.
Make sure you have the correct firing order.
Move on to the timing.
Compression test.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well, I just checked again for spark. They're all pretty good. Firing order is correct.
PS- I've heard ppl say "check your relays." What exactly does that mean?
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06-14-2006, 08:15 PM
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Re: Welp...my mini-me won't start. Lotttts of questions! (Slamaccord)
get a compression check and do that... im in the same boat as you right now.. but i know i dont have **** for compression (under 20psi) in clys 1-2-3... so check that... i dont think you could be as unlucky as me but who knows....
also would you want to sell me your old d15B7 dizzy?
also would you want to sell me your old d15B7 dizzy?
06-15-2006, 04:20 AM
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Re: Welp...my mini-me won't start. Lotttts of questions! (JDMKid71)
OKAY. I turned the thing in the dizzy 180 degrees and it REFUSED to go into the cam. It would go halfway and then get stuck. I tried for 10 minutes straight, turned it back, and it popped right in with no fuss at all. So apparently the dizzy was made so that it only installs the correct way. So we can rule that out as a problem.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDMKid71 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">get a compression check and do that... im in the same boat as you right now.. but i know i dont have **** for compression (under 20psi) in clys 1-2-3... so check that... i dont think you could be as unlucky as me but who knows....
also would you want to sell me your old d15B7 dizzy?</TD></TR></TABLE>
hmmm...how should I get the compression tested? I don't have an air compressor or anything. I think I'll do that if the other stuff fails.
PM about the dx dizzy sent
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Slamaccord »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Check the timing for god sakes !!!</TD></TR></TABLE>
I know this is dumb, but, how do I do that besides shifting the timing belt by a few teeth either way?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDMKid71 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">get a compression check and do that... im in the same boat as you right now.. but i know i dont have **** for compression (under 20psi) in clys 1-2-3... so check that... i dont think you could be as unlucky as me but who knows....
also would you want to sell me your old d15B7 dizzy?</TD></TR></TABLE>
hmmm...how should I get the compression tested? I don't have an air compressor or anything. I think I'll do that if the other stuff fails.
PM about the dx dizzy sent
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Slamaccord »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Check the timing for god sakes !!!</TD></TR></TABLE>
I know this is dumb, but, how do I do that besides shifting the timing belt by a few teeth either way?
06-15-2006, 08:09 AM
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Re: Welp...my mini-me won't start. Lotttts of questions! (ZeeSix)
Check the ignition coil. Sounds like you getting air & fuel but its not igniting. So either the timings off (i don't think so from what you said earlier) or the electrical/ignition is not working like it should.
Sounds like you getting air & fuel but its not igniting. So either the timings off (i don't think so from what you said earlier) or the electrical/ignition is not working like it should.
06-15-2006, 12:12 PM
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Re: Welp...my mini-me won't start. Lotttts of questions! (onefast93sol)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by onefast93sol »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Check the ignition coil. Sounds like you getting air & fuel but its not igniting. So either the timings off (i don't think so from what you said earlier) or the electrical/ignition is not working like it should.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'll try that. I have everything timed perfectly I think. And I tried the "clamp the fuel" trick at least a dozen times and cleaned gas off the spark plugs. Kinda clueless about what is wrong with this thing.
Sounds like you getting air & fuel but its not igniting. So either the timings off (i don't think so from what you said earlier) or the electrical/ignition is not working like it should.</TD></TR></TABLE>I'll try that. I have everything timed perfectly I think. And I tried the "clamp the fuel" trick at least a dozen times and cleaned gas off the spark plugs. Kinda clueless about what is wrong with this thing.
06-15-2006, 01:35 PM
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Re: Welp...my mini-me won't start. Lotttts of questions! (ZeeSix)
where did you get the head (top end) from ? are you 100% that everything is good ? im asking cuzz the weak spark sounds like a bad icm, my d15b was like that when i got it ,it would spark but not start. i did just about everthing you have and the icm turned out to be it
06-15-2006, 01:42 PM
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Re: Welp...my mini-me won't start. Lotttts of questions! (civicracer94)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civicracer94 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">where did you get the head (top end) from ? are you 100% that everything is good ? im asking cuzz the weak spark sounds like a bad icm, my d15b was like that when i got it ,it would spark but not start. i did just about everthing you have and the icm turned out to be it </TD></TR></TABLE>
OK, what exactly is the ICM?? I'm not 100% sure about the head...although the seller insists that it ran fine when it was pulled. He said it was off his neighbor's totalled civic and that he took it off properly before storing it from Feb to the point when I bought it. However...2 ex mani bolts were slightly bent and the threads in one of the valve cover bolt holes were stripped, so it wasn't perfect.
LMK about the ICM, I wanna figure this thing out!
Modified by ZeeSix at 6:17 PM 6/15/2006
OK, what exactly is the ICM?? I'm not 100% sure about the head...although the seller insists that it ran fine when it was pulled. He said it was off his neighbor's totalled civic and that he took it off properly before storing it from Feb to the point when I bought it. However...2 ex mani bolts were slightly bent and the threads in one of the valve cover bolt holes were stripped, so it wasn't perfect.
LMK about the ICM, I wanna figure this thing out!
Modified by ZeeSix at 6:17 PM 6/15/2006
06-15-2006, 01:51 PM
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Re: Welp...my mini-me won't start. Lotttts of questions! (ZeeSix)
ICM - Ignition control Module. Here is a link that details the testing and replacing of the Ignition Coil and the ICM. The writeup is for a b-series but the d-series dizzy/Coil should be similar. https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1430824
zeesix i believe you already have this.
zeesix i believe you already have this.
06-15-2006, 08:10 PM
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Re: Welp...my mini-me won't start. Lotttts of questions! (ZeeSix)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PRcivicHB »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Are you using an OBD1 vtec dizzy?</TD></TR></TABLE>
yup. d16z6.
tomorrow is ignition coil check day.
***** This squeeking noise when I turn the engine over is bugging me out. It is really loud! It sounds like when you walk down a tiled hallway with wet sneakers. I know it's the piston rings. Is this normal? should i be worried about it? I don't wanna screw up my rings.
Modified by ZeeSix at 6:30 PM 6/15/2006
yup. d16z6.
tomorrow is ignition coil check day.
***** This squeeking noise when I turn the engine over is bugging me out. It is really loud! It sounds like when you walk down a tiled hallway with wet sneakers. I know it's the piston rings. Is this normal? should i be worried about it? I don't wanna screw up my rings.
Modified by ZeeSix at 6:30 PM 6/15/2006
06-16-2006, 04:19 AM
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Re: Welp...my mini-me won't start. Lotttts of questions! (ZeeSix)
With the motor squeaking everytime it tries to turn over, Im wondering if you are getting oil pressure?
and you didnt leave a shop rag in cylinders?? I've heard of that happening before...
That sucks this is happening... What are your plans after you get it running... Zex cam, ITBs, Nitrous, turbo???
and you didnt leave a shop rag in cylinders?? I've heard of that happening before...
That sucks this is happening... What are your plans after you get it running... Zex cam, ITBs, Nitrous, turbo???
06-16-2006, 04:32 AM
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Re: Welp...my mini-me won't start. Lotttts of questions! (PRcivicHB)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PRcivicHB »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">With the motor squeaking everytime it tries to turn over, Im wondering if you are getting oil pressure?
and you didnt leave a shop rag in cylinders?? I've heard of that happening before...
That sucks this is happening... What are your plans after you get it running... Zex cam, ITBs, Nitrous, turbo???
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well that actually COULD be a problem, since I was unsure about if I wired the vtec oil pressure correctly. Does anyone know which of the wires (blue with black line or yellow with black line) is the GROUND? I grounded the blue/black one.
I didn't leave a rag in the cylinders. But I did to keep debris out when I polished the block mating surface. Then I washed them out with soapy water...which is why my cylinders are so dry and unlubricated
My plans = drive my car, lol. After this I'm not gonna have the money, time or energy to do anything for a while except enjoy transportation.
and you didnt leave a shop rag in cylinders?? I've heard of that happening before...
That sucks this is happening... What are your plans after you get it running... Zex cam, ITBs, Nitrous, turbo???
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well that actually COULD be a problem, since I was unsure about if I wired the vtec oil pressure correctly. Does anyone know which of the wires (blue with black line or yellow with black line) is the GROUND? I grounded the blue/black one.
I didn't leave a rag in the cylinders. But I did to keep debris out when I polished the block mating surface. Then I washed them out with soapy water...which is why my cylinders are so dry and unlubricated
My plans = drive my car, lol. After this I'm not gonna have the money, time or energy to do anything for a while except enjoy transportation.
06-16-2006, 04:56 AM
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Re: Welp...my mini-me won't start. Lotttts of questions! (ZeeSix)
When you washed out the cylinders with water did you drain the engine?? Maybe water got in with your oil?? Did you drain and refill the oil before you tried to crank the motor?
06-16-2006, 05:06 AM
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Re: Welp...my mini-me won't start. Lotttts of questions! (PRcivicHB)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PRcivicHB »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When you washed out the cylinders with water did you drain the engine?? Maybe water got in with your oil?? Did you drain and refill the oil before you tried to crank the motor?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I cranked the motor over to get the water out of the cylinders and then I drained the water out with the coolant in front of the block. I had already drained the oil before I washed out my cylinders, so I didn't do it again afterwards. I just refilled the oil before I tried to start the car. Could that be the problem?
I cranked the motor over to get the water out of the cylinders and then I drained the water out with the coolant in front of the block. I had already drained the oil before I washed out my cylinders, so I didn't do it again afterwards. I just refilled the oil before I tried to start the car. Could that be the problem?
06-16-2006, 05:36 AM
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Re: Welp...my mini-me won't start. Lotttts of questions! (PRcivicHB)
I drained about a cup and it looked OK. There were some cloudy white streaks running through it though. Here's the best pic I could get.
