Homelesstyper

anyone know how to hook up a vtec air flow converter on a 98 civic ex?

cambopheonix56

its vtec air fuel controller and its a waste of time

1baddturbosi

goto apexi's website. its on there. fyi... solder the wires, no butt-connectors

Syndacate

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1baddturbosi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">goto apexi's website. its on there. fyi... solder the wires, no butt-connectors</TD></TR></TABLE>

Stop telling ricers how to damage their engines .

@ OP:
It's a waste of money, it's useless bullshit. You won't be able to tune any better with randomly selecting VTEC engagement points. And BTW, it's VTEC air/fuel controller, not vtec air flow converter...

Sell it to some ricer for more than it's worth, tell him you can change VTEC with it - he'll buy that **** right up.

As for using it on your car? It's dumb as hell, get it tuned, either Hondata or a chipped P28 on Crome or Neptune can edit your VTEC engagement point as part of your tune...just getting the VAFC by itself is a waste of cash.

Padawan

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Syndacate &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's a waste of money, it's useless. You won't be able to tune any better with randomly selecting VTEC engagement points. And BTW, it's VTEC air/fuel controller, not vtec air flow converter...</TD></TR></TABLE>

First, the V-AFC can indeed be a legitimate tuning tool if used properly. The original poster didn't say what his plans for the unit are, but it's certainly possible that he intends to dyno tune with it. Second, it is VTEC Air Flow Converter, not "VTEC air/fuel controller".

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Syndacate &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As for using it on your car? It's dumb as hell, get it tuned, either Hondata or a chipped P28 on Crome or Neptune can edit your VTEC engagement point as part of your tune...just getting the VAFC by itself is a waste of cash.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Again, the V-AFC is a tuning tool, and while it doesn't offer the depth of tuning ability that something such as Uberdata or Crome does, it can be useful if tuned properly. However, simply installing it and playing with the settings is a poor idea.

Syndacate

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Padawan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

First, the V-AFC can indeed be a legitimate tuning tool if used properly. The original poster didn't say what his plans for the unit are, but it's certainly possible that he intends to dyno tune with it. Second, it is VTEC Air Flow Converter, not "VTEC air/fuel controller". </TD></TR></TABLE>

I learn something new every day.

Though it's NOT a legitimate tool to anybody that's not a ricer (it's an opinion if you're going to start throwing legitimacies and mine is simply that it's useless as **** on a bull).

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Padawan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Again, the V-AFC is a tuning tool, and while it doesn't offer the depth of tuning ability that something such as Uberdata or Crome does, it can be useful if tuned properly. However, simply installing it and playing with the settings is a poor idea. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Trust me when I tell you, friend, this car will not be dyno tuned.

He will slap it in, lower VTEC, and think he just gained 40whp.

Padawan

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Syndacate &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Though it's NOT a legitimate tool to anybody that's not a ricer (it's an opinion if you're going to start throwing legitimacies and mine is simply that it's useless)</TD></TR></TABLE>

You're entitled to your opinion, but many people have used the V-AFC and similar devices with decent results. Clearly though, we both agree that there are much better options.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Syndacate &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Trust me when I tell you, friend, this car will not be dyno tuned.

He will slap it in, lower VTEC, and think he just gained 40whp.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Again, that's a good possibility, but I was simply giving the original poster the benefit of the doubt.

Syndacate

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Padawan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

You're entitled to your opinion, but many people have used the V-AFC and similar devices with decent results. Clearly though, we both agree that there are much better options.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Padawan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Again, that's a good possibility, but I was simply giving the original poster the benefit of the doubt. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Alright, fair enough.

THC07

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Padawan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

First, the V-AFC can indeed be a legitimate tuning tool if used properly. The original poster didn't say what his plans for the unit are, but it's certainly possible that he intends to dyno tune with it. Second, it is VTEC Air Flow Converter, not "VTEC air/fuel controller".

</TD></TR></TABLE>

A vafc is no tool. Its a waste of time. lots and lots of time.
please explain how you can us a vafc as a tool. how is one used properly?
maybe theres somthing i dunno about vafc's but im pretty sure they are trash.

jay_cue

syndacate is just post whoring once again.

i've seen lots of people run afc hacks on turbo'd d-series motors run very good setups using this piece of crap of a unit.

dave buschur uses the apex safc on street evo's. dave buschur knows his dsm **** and i'm sure wouldnt just use crap parts.

it seems as though syndacate just regurgitates crap he sees on here, and not based on anything he's done himself.

i'm running a vafc, and it helped smoothen out how my car drives. vtec on my p72 is too low at 4400, and felt better raising it to 5600.

there are tons of better systems, but if youre not going big, it's better than no tool to tune

.Sarge^

Its possible to get gains with the VAFC but its not somthing you tune on the street. you can guess what your getting and "feel" the power but unless you dyno the car you probably will not be able to tune the car properly. Go ahead and spend the extra money and get dyno tuned on real software.

FWIW I have always heard it called a VTEC/ Air fuel controller.

THC07

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jay_cue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">syndacate is just post whoring once again.

i've seen lots of people run afc hacks on turbo'd d-series motors run very good setups using this piece of crap of a unit.

dave buschur uses the apex safc on street evo's. dave buschur knows his dsm **** and i'm sure wouldnt just use crap parts.

it seems as though syndacate just regurgitates crap he sees on here, and not based on anything he's done himself.

i'm running a vafc, and it helped smoothen out how my car drives. vtec on my p72 is too low at 4400, and felt better raising it to 5600.

there are tons of better systems, but if youre not going big, it's better than no tool to tune</TD></TR></TABLE>


He is??? looks to me like hes trying to help tell you why vafc are junk.
what are you doing?
probly trying to tune your car again with a vafc.

Basically the vafc tricks the ecu by altering the map sensor voltage making the ecu think that the car is seeing more or less vac. Then it actually is. When you consider the fact that for the same price as a vafc you can get everything you need to be tuned on CROME.(which is the same thing as hondata s200.

VAFC (minor fuel adjustments and vtec engagment points)

CROME (major fuel,timing adjustments, vtec engagment points, rev limter, speed limiter, full throttle launch, built in shift light, boost option, injector size multiplier, ITB TOOLS, datalogging options, ect
(quoted)



Modified by THC07 at 7:17 AM 3/19/2007

.Sarge^

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by THC07 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">CROME </TD></TR></TABLE>

jay_cue

well i got mine for free.

i dont have major adjustments that need to be made. very minor. just adjusted vtec point to be higher. and to read rpms since i have a vx with a tach that goes to 8000, and gsr motor goes to 8200.

so it works fine for me for now. until i actually rebuild the motor, i dont need extensive capabilities to make adjustments.

THC07

here we go, thanks to Options.

Read:

An air fuel controller adjusts fuel control, and in some cases VTEC activation. This is GREAT for a DSM (like a 4G63 eclipse/tallon etc...) because that engine uses a MASS AIR FLOW SENSOR. Honda's use MAP sensors (manifold absolute pressure or intake air pressure sensor). What's the difference between the 2 and why will it work for one and not the other??? Simple.

-A Mass Air Flow system adds fuel based on "How much air did I just suck up". MASS AIR IS A REAL VALUE. Real values have a basis, and no further calculation is needed. "X air needs X fuel." Adjusting any values PAST that point in the ECU's equation is OK!!!!! If you add fuel to that mixture (by increasing the injector duration), then the ECU will acknowledge that input and add fuel.

-A MAP sensor style system only sees what the manifold pressure (and other data) is, and then has to CALCULATE in order to figure out "How much air did I just suck up?" This number is NOT a REAL VALUE, but a derived value, and therefore is a variable. "X manifold pressure-times X throttle position-times X RPM-times X intake air temperature-times......." ".....equals how much air I FIGURED OUT that I sucked up." See the difference?? The ECU NEEDS this data in order to come up with a derived number for "X fuel."

So here are ALL the reasons why NOT to mount up your AFC:

1: ALL Correct Sensor Data is NEEDED.
A Honda needs all its sensor data, and needs to receive it CORRECTLY to determine how much air it's getting. It auto adjusts for fuel consumption based on these sensor values. If you're running boost, then you need to TELL THE ECU it's getting it. Unfortunately, a Honda ECU in stock form doesn't have the programming for any manifold pressure ABOVE normal barometric pressure. So, what happens when a Stock ECU sees boost at the MAP sensor??? The ECU doesn't have enough data to calculate the fuel table, so..... "Check Engine." "Please help me, I'm an ECU and I'm dumb, what does 7 psi mean?? I don't have that number in my tables, so I can't calculate. Wait a minute....if I don't have that number, then the MAP sensor must be broken, because if I don't have the number, then it doesn't exist. Please replace the MAP sensor." An AFC won't cure that. ONLY A NEW ROM CHIP WITH BOOST TABLES WILL CURE THAT.

2: The ECU "auto adjusts" itself.
Let’s say you want to tune in 10% more fuel with your AFC. Fine, tell your AFC to add 10% more fuel. No problem right?? Wrong. What happens to the O2 sensor when it's got 10% more fuel?? It tells the ECU that it's running 10% rich. So, the ECU "auto adjusts", and takes 10% out of the mixture. You've added 10% with the AFC, and the ECU has taken 10% back out to get back to stoich. What's the net increase in fuel?? That's right, 0%. NOW...... Lets add fuel until the ECU can NO LONGER adjust (or, you've added so much additional fuel that the ECU doesn't know what's happening, and can't compensate that far). Simple. You run rich. "Hi, I'm the check engine light again. There must be something wrong with my O2 sensor because I've backed the fuel off as far as I can go, and it keeps telling me that I'm still too rich. Please change the O2 sensor for me, because that must be what's wrong with me. Thank you."

3: VTEC engagement point calibration.
VTEC is a combination of 3 different things. 1: The changeover of the cam lobes. 2: The changeover of the fuel MAP. 3: The changeover of the Timing MAP. If these 3 things don't happen all at the same time, what happens?? Simple again, you have a "hole" in the fuel and timing MAPS. If VTEC engages at 3000 RPMS, and the fuel and timing table follow the ECU's instructions and changeover at 5200, then have you added any more fuel and or timing from 3000 until 5200?? No. Therefore, what did you gain?? Nothing. So what, the cam changed over, but you didn't add any fuel to it, or change the timing curve. You got more air, but the ECU didn't know that it was going to get it! So it didn't DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. Yes, adding more air makes it FEEL like you're making more power sooner, but all you're REALY doing is running lean for a few seconds.

4: An AFC can't tell the ECU what kind/size/style injector you're running.
The ECU is programmed for one particular injector size and style. The one that CAME in your car from the factory. If you change the injectors to a larger size, the ECU MUST be reprogrammed in order to realize this, and take away or add some injector duration. If .013 seconds is the time an injector needs to be open to add fuel at 4600 rpm's at wide open throttle with a 240 cc injector, then how much MORE fuel is added with a 440 cc injector held open for the same amount of time?? Correct. Nearly double. That means you've added 2 times MORE fuel than the ECU thought it added. "Hi, it's me again, Check Engine. Yeah.... Ummm, What the expletive."

NOW. Let's look at the options to an AFC controller.

-An aftermarket ECU (Spoon, Mugen)
-A modified ECU with a programmable ROM, AND additional memory in piggyback form (Hondata)
-A plug and play fully programmable ECU (AEM)
-A totaly programmable blank slate ECU (Halltech)

ANY of these will allow for WHATEVER you decided to program for. Bigger injectors. Boost. Different Cams. Higher shift points. Higher rev limits. Anything you want. You can have ONE of these systems do it for you, and do it correctly.

Some are expensive, some are inexpensive (AEM costs about $1,600.00, and Hondata starts at $295.00). But the bottom line remains, YOU HAVE TO HAVE ONE IF YOU EVER WANT TO ADD MORE FUEL OR TIMING CORRECTLY to a Honda. For what it would cost to get an AFC controller, an MSD system with boost retard, a new set of injectors, etc... "YOU CAN AFFORD TO GET THE CORRECT SYSTEM THAT WILL WORK FOR A HONDA."

Padawan

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by THC07 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A vafc is no tool. Its a waste of time. lots and lots of time.
please explain how you can us a vafc as a tool. how is one used properly?
maybe theres somthing i dunno about vafc's but im pretty sure they are trash.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

You have explained in this thread how the V-AFC is a tool. Obviously, you're aware that it can be used to tune the fuel curve by intercepting and altering the MAP signal, and can also be used to alter VTEC points.

How can you properly use a V-AFC as a tool? Quite easily, assuming you have the aid of an adjustable FPR, a dyno with a wideband O2, and an understanding of how the unit functions.

Again, it obviously isn't as effective a tuning tool as a chipped ECU and an application such as Crome or Uberdata, but that doesn't mean 100% useless.

Padawan

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by THC07 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
So here are ALL the reasons why NOT to mount up your AFC:

1: ALL Correct Sensor Data is NEEDED.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Not necessarily. This argument centers around turbo applications, and indeed a chipped ECU with a proper fuel and timing map is greatly preferred in that situation. However, on an N/A setup, the positive MAP pressure value obviously is not an issue.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by THC07 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">2: The ECU "auto adjusts" itself.</TD></TR></TABLE>

In closed-loop mode, yes. However, at or near WOT, the O2 sensor is no longer being used to determine the correct A/F ratio, and is thus no longer "auto adjusting".

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by THC07 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">3: VTEC engagement point calibration.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, it's important to have the proper fuel and timing maps at the proper time for the VTEC cam profile. The fuel issue can be somewhat overcome by tuning the fuel curve via the V-AFC, though obviously timing is unable to be altered. Again, this is obviously not an ideal situation, and I am not contesting that.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by THC07 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">4: An AFC can't tell the ECU what kind/size/style injector you're running.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Again, this is true, but for relatively mild setups that aren't running extremely oversized injectors it isn't an issue. Even with larger injectors, it's often possible to compensate for them using the V-AFC, though the results are again not as favourable as they would be if a chipped/tuned ECU were used.

Make no mistake, a chipped ECU tuned with Crome or Uberdata is unquestionably a better option than the V-AFC in nearly all cases. My point is simply that the V-AFC is not as utterly useless as many people often claim.

Homelesstyper

well it was free, might as well give it a try

Padawan

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Homelesstyper &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well it was free, might as well give it a try</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, as long as "giving it a try" doesn't involve random or blind adjustment of the settings.

doood

iTrader: (1)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jay_cue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i'm running a vafc, and it helped smoothen out how my car drives. vtec on my p72 is too low at 4400, and felt better raising it to 5600. </TD></TR></TABLE>

why did you raise vtec? do you have bigger cams? did you do this on a dyno?

with a vafc and other piggy backs any adjustment to the fuel curves also alters the timing curves.

taken from http://www.phearable.net/tech/....html

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Why piggybacks (vafc, emanage) "suck" by pgmfi:
Piggy Back controllers allow stock ECUs to do things that they normally can't do, like run larger injectors or deal with boost. Remember that piggyback controllers work by altering sensor signals before they get to the ECU.
Most of the time, the primary signal being messed with is the Map Sensor. This is critically important in a Speed Density car. The Map Sensor is used by the ECU to guess how much air is going into the car, and therefore how much fuel to supply in order to match airflow. When you "lean" out a car with an AFC, you are simply decreasing the Map Sensor signal - the ECU responds to the decrease in manifold pressure by supplying less fuel. When you "richen" a car with an AFC, you are simply increasing the Map Sensor signal - the ECU responds to the increase in manifold pressure by supplying more fuel.
The change in fueling happens for a reason: if you look at a fuel table, Map Sensor values correspond with columns. When you increase or decrease the signal from the Map Sensor, you are simply making the ECU use a different column than it originally would have used. (see Understanding Maps if you need some help understanding reading Fuel and Ign tables)
But wait, isn't the Map Sensor used for determining ignition requirements too? When you "lean" out a car with a Piggy Back, you also in all likelyhood advanced timing. When you "richen" a car with a Piggy Back, you also in all likelyhood retarded timing. Look at trends horizontally (as MAP changes) in an ignition table, and you will see why this happens. This helps explain why so many boosted cars running on the "AFC hack" have issues due to excessive ignition advance.
The bottom line: Piggy Back Controllers suck because you cannot independently adjust fuel and ignition. Any changes to fueling will produce a change in ignition too, and often this is undesirable. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Syndacate

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Padawan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Again, it obviously isn't as effective a tuning tool as a chipped ECU and an application such as Crome or Uberdata, but that doesn't mean 100% useless. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, but you know as well as I do, and as well as THC07 does, that 90% of the time, people with VAFCs aren't using them in conjunction with a wideband O2's, dynos, nor adjustable FPRs.

THC07

lol Padawan. wow, way to hit it home Pal'e (sp?). you can just tell me to shut up next time. im not nor can i agure with that.

Padawan

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Syndacate &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah, but you know as well as I do, and as well as THC07 does, that 90% of the time, people with VAFCs aren't using them in conjunction with a wideband O2's, dynos, nor adjustable FPRs.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, that's probably true. Again, I was just trying to give the benefit of the doubt.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by THC07 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">lol Padawan. wow, way to hit it home Pal'e (sp?). you can just tell me to shut up next time. im not nor can i agure with that. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I wouldn't tell you to shut up. We're all here to share information, discuss, and learn.