Jackal6042

Hey all. I'm hoping someone can help me with this pressing issue.

JDM D15B in my EJ1, replacing piston rings.

Well Kragen first messed up the special order on these rings, didn't even order them which delayed me a few days, but thats not the point.

I have this JDM D15B VTEC motor and I'm replacing the rings, so I ordered D16Z6 rings. The thought process was I know bore is the same, and USDM VTEC should equal JDM VTEC in this case.

Well either they got me the wrong rings or I made the wrong assumption. Now I'm in a crunch because these rings that are supposedly for the D16Z6 are too thick. They don't even fit in the ring grooves.

I'm taking this back to Kragen and I'm ordering from the dealer, but I don't want to get the wrong rings as the Honda part number for the D16Z6 and D15B7 are different.

Anyone had experience with this and know which rings to get? Let me know if you know FOR SURE which ring set to buy.

Thanks in advance.

tegboy 195

i'd just order the D15B7 ones. not point getting something you hope will fit. just get the part you know will fit. job done

Jackal6042

See here is the thing, those rings may NOT fit, just because it is a D15 doesn't mean everything is the same.

Some more info for possible help. The pistons are stamped with P08 on top of them...

For the D16Z6 here are the specs for the ring grooves...

Top .0480"-.0484"
Second .0598"-.0602"
Oil .1104"-.1110"

Specs when I measure my pistons...

Top ~.042"-.043"
Second ~.0480"-.0484"
Oil ~.1110"

What the Factory Service Manual says for these cars is the D15Z1 has a second ring which is slightly smaller at .0480"-.0484", which would fit for my car, however the top ring would still be too big... Oil rin sizes will be prefect no matter what rings I buy.

So what car had ring groove measurements like these P08 pistons so I can get the right damn rings. I've been searching www.hondapartsdeals.com with no luck.

Anyone got some other factory service manuals they can check for me on these specs? As long as the bore also is 75.00-75.02mm.

I'm ****ing lost and my car is in pieces where I have to pay per day that its there whether I work on it or not.

94EG8

Out of curiousity are the pistons domed, dished or flat topped? I can tell you that D15B7 pistons are flat topped and are stamped PM3. D16Z6 are dished but I can't remember the stamp. PM7/P29 DOHC ZC pistons are domed. D15Z1 pistons are dished. Hope this helps a bit.

Jackal6042

I've seen a few posts floating around that say D15B7 PM3 rings are the right ones to get. Anyone know which gen B7 had PM3 rings and can you confirm the groove sizes match the P08 piston?

Then looking at the specs in my 92 civic manual the D15Z1 would be the best fit but the top ring would still be too thick.

I googled my heart out and keep finding that these ring groove sizes are unique to the D15B JDM motor and there is no others like it. From what I see so far thats all I've found. I'm going to keep searching though.

Honda part number on these for anyone else who runs across this issue is 13011-P08-004. But go ahead and google this part number yourself, unless you speak Russian (for some odd reason a TON of Russian sites come up) good luck getting you hands on these.

Basically, I'm ****ed. The rings were fine I'm sure but I took them out so they need to be replaced now. Looks like my option is to buy new pistons for this damn thing. ****in more money I did not want to spend on a D-series I'm pulling from this car in a few months!!!

Does anyone have any economical suggestions to help me here? I'd like to just press out the piston pin and put new pistons on these rods as the bearings are in very good shape.

The pistons look like this

This **** is driving me crazy!!!

pswann

I too would like to know what you call this type piston. It is the same one I have. I did a leak back and found I was loosing pressure through the valves on 4 so I pulled the head expecting to find a burnt valve but just heavy deposits keeping the valves from closing. Put the head back on this weekend and now it appears I should have done the rings while I was there because I have compression at 110 across the board. So I am either going to be selling the car needing rings or I will need the same rings you are getting.

Here is a pic of my Pistons

I have learned some valuable lessons pulling this head so it hasnt all been for nothing.

Since your paying for the bay I would check the dealer price. I got a replacement camshaft gear from my dealer for 70 bucks when the junkyards wanted 40. Good luck and let us know how you came out!

Will help me decide if I want to pull the head off again.

Do the timing alignment without the valve cover. You cannot eyeball it, at least I couldnt the first, or the second, or the third time of putting the timing belt on. fourth times a champ!

Jackal6042

I'm very knowledgable in the Honda world. Built my first motor over a decade ago. Sold Hondas for 4 years and Acura for a year and a half after. All my buddies and I did was do build and misc work on Hondas for people.

But most of my knowledge is B series, K series or chassis specific stuff. Of course I have great general knowledge of the Honda which is why I went ahead with this rebuild without research. But I've found my in-depth knowledge of the D-series is good, but lacks in these little "quirks" that are super specific to a single D-series engine. Lesson learned, even though I know a **** ton about Hondas, I will consider doing a little digging before embarking on a project like this in the future; even if only to brush up on my knowledge a little.

From my research tonight I've found that the P08 piston we have only came in the JDM D15B and the top ring groove is smaller for some gay reason. The problem with this is there is no USDM vehicle that matches these specs. I'm going to see if my Honda contacts can special order this JDM part number in my previous post and go from there. I've found one importer that listed this PN on his site but I wont get word back until tomorrow at the earliest if I ever get word back.

I'm honestly going to look into replacing the pistons with maybe a PR3 or P28 piston and go from there (so I can actually buy rings in the US), I will keep updating this thread as I progress.

What sucks is the motor was burning oil, ended up being valve seals in #3 and #4 cylinders. Had a used head I rebuild and cleaned up ready to go on. Decided to do the rings while I was in there. I figured spent $100 on rings now or spend $100 on rings later plus a new headgasket and whatever other misc items would need to be replaced that time around. But again I should have maybe done my research before removing the pistons, because I bet these rings were fine before removal.

Looks like I wont be driving the EJ1 for a while, its ok though, my DD is a DC5.

If anyone else has had experience with these P08 pistons and replacing the rings please chime in.

Jackal6042

C'mon HT, what would the D-series gurus do in this situation? There has to be someone out there who has thoughts on what OE pistons I could put in there. I think I'm gonna hit the pull apart lot tomorrow and see what pistons I can find.

I think I remember reading that the P28 pistons are 3mm taller than the P08. So if that is true that might cause clearance issues within the combustion chamber. Can anyone confirm this? I know 3mm isn't much but would my pistons hit the head if I threw P28s on the existing rods? I ask because the rod bearings are good and I really don't want to spend much more money putting this together.

Who knows what the best bet would be to go with in this case using the existing rods? P28? P03? P07? Others?

pswann

Sorry you have not gotten information yet. Did you find a solution?

Since you have done this before, let me ask you a question regarding rings.

I now know what it takes to pull the head on this engine. Since I need rings are there any suprises I may encounter if I attempt to do this down and dirty? or are there parts that will not go back together and have to be replaced along with the rings?

Are you honing the cylinders or any other prep work? I am getting tired of taking this engine apart but if all I have to do is the pan, push out the piston, replace the rings and shove it back in 4 times that shouldnt be too bad. But if I do that it would be really cool if I got the compression back and stopped the smoking that I get when I race the engine in park.

Thanks and hope you have already got your car back together.

Newsom91

hey i was just looking around and found this idk if it helps but just figured id post it.

http://www.d-series.org/forums/natur...-official.html

Jackal6042

Thank you... I've read about 4 pages into this thread you linked (had to do it on my blackberry because d-series.org is blocked at my work)

What I've found is D15B P08 pistons have a shorter compression height than most D-series pistons. With the exception of the D17 out of the Civic GX (natural gas vehicle).

What I'm looking to do it get some good used D16Z6 P28 pistons, simple ring replacement. Check the piston to cylinder clearances and make sure they wont hit the head or protrude out of the block to the point that it would cause problems. I will keep this post updated as to what I end up doing and how it works.

Didn't make it to the pick your part lot today, maybe tomorrow.

EDIT:

I've found that D15Z1 rings out of the VX would be the closest match so far... But the top ring would still be too big. Anyone got some old pistons laying around they can measure? All I need to find is a piston with 75mm bore and a top ring groove of .042"-.043". Instead of buying pistons I could just get multiple sets of rings if need be.

Jackal6042

OK, if you are doing this be sure to inspect your rod bearings while you have it apart. There is no point in taking it apart, replacing the rings and then putting it back together with bad rod bearings.

Like I said earlier, my rod bearing are good and I'm pulling this motor for a swap after not too long. So I'm looking for a drivable solution for now that wont cost me an *** load of money (just bought a DC5 too so $ is a little tight for right now).

Again I'm sure my rings were fine because my oil burning problems final diagnosis was jacked up valve seals. But I figured I'd replace the ring while I was in there... I'm learning that was a big mistake as far as the P08 piston. But I WILL find a solution and I will be sure to help you out as well with my experience. **** man I wish I knew these little quirks about the damn D-series before I took the pistons out.

Lets get this done so Desiree (my EJ1) is back on the road...

Jackal6042

A few more pages in on the thread Newsom91 posted the link to someone says they have confirmed the rings are the same thickness on the D17 (01+ Civic GX) and the JDM D15B. But I've heard so much mixed information there is one way to confirm. Below is the factory service manual for the eg/ej civics. I've highlighted the rings that will fit in the P08 piston. So the D15Z1 is the closest thus far. I haven't been able to find an 01+ Civic service manual online to make sure the ring groove of the D17 PMS piston matches the .042"-.043" i measured in the P08 piston.

So it looks like I'm going to the dealership tomorrow and asking them if I can see their 01+ Civic manual to check the specs on this measurement for the D17.

Again I will post what I find. Going to sleep for tonight though.

pswann

I am anxious to hear your results from the dealer. I listed my car on craigslist and will see if anyone will take it off my hands. If not I will have to put another day into it and more money. It is the head gasket I just put in that bugs me the most. The car is nickle and diming me to death. Will buy another car and this time do the top and bottom. That d site was very cool. Hadnt see that one.

Jackal6042

I found this...

http://www.autodynamics-honda.com/hop08p07oemp.html

A company in Singapore who sells the D15B part number rings in standard and both oversized sizes.

If you look at this site you will see additional applications such as the D15Z1 and D16Y8 etc. It seems that the P07 rings are the same. So 13011-P07-004 is the Honda part number. Also if you go here http://www.d-series.org/forums/gener...ajor-help.html this guy used VX rings (D15Z1) and said they are good to go. I sent him a PM on that forum just to confirm and see if he has had any issues since he put them in a year ago. We will see if I hear back.

So I'm left to either order VX rings from the dealer or get these ones from Singapore. Worst case I found a used D16Z6 short block locally for a few dollars, but it doesn't look like I have to go that route.

pswann

Thanks for the info. All I know for sure on my engine is I dont have a vtech. Car didnt sell yesterday, one guy almost bought it but couldnt buy insurance so he was upset I was keeping the plates because in Texas you need insurance to get plates. Dummy wanted to drive it a couple of weeks in my name without insurance. Let me think on that one. The bad part of craigslist.

Is there a tag somewhere on the car that lists the engine numbers so I can be sure what I have? I thought we had the exact same engine but missed that you had the vtech. Its a 92 civic 1.5. Cannot believe you are looking to swap engines due to no being able to locate rings. You must be able to do the swap alot faster than I could.

Jackal6042

Ok I couldn't ****in go to sleep without figuring this all out... So here is the FINAL verdict...



That is from the 96-00 factory service manual, if you go to that Singapore importers site they say "Honda P08, P07 piston rings". This got me to thinking... I finally found a 96-00 service manual online and I checked it out. Sure as ****, top ring groove is smaller EXACTLY like the P08 piston.

Now if you read the whole thread you will see I mention measuring my top groove on the P08 piston as .042"-.043". I will mention that for this I used a dial indicator so it was not the most precise measurement (tool may have stopped too close to the edge, etc.) You will see this measurement on the pic above is .0402"-.0406", which puts me pretty much spot on. I could go in and get more exact measurements of the P08 piston with feeler gauges or a micrometer, but I'm pretty sure we are A-OK.

And you can compare the two to see that ring to groove clearances are the same along with ring end gap measurements.

Now for the D15B JDM the part number that it calls for on the rings is 13011-P08-004 (13021, 13031 for oversized). However when comparing the measurements the rings for the D16Y5, D16Y7, D16Y8, D15Z1 are spot on. So if you live where you can only get your hands on USDM Honda parts, order 13011-P07-004 for the standard sized rings. The importer I linked to will cost you about $80.80 if you have it sent SingaporePost... If you need it sooner the dealer should be able to get these same Rikon rings for you for about $20 more. I'm ordering mine tomorrow. Hopefully I can still get them by Saturday and get her running again.

These can be found in any 96-00 SOHC Civic or also the 92-95 VX if you decided to buy them from a parts store and not direct from Honda and need to know make/model.

I can't believe this was so hard to find out, especially since the D15B is such a common transplant as far as SOHC replacement motors. And I can't believe people on d-series.org would post things like "Use GX rings". Yeah use GX rings and your **** will be ****ed up pretty damn quick.

See me, I refuse to be one of those newb ******** that posts guesses and false information. I've been building Honda motors for over a decade so I wont say it without a reference or personal experience I can clearly remember and even then I will provide reference. I just can't believe I've never run into this issue before after so long in "the game". But I guess its ok since this is only the second JDM D15B I've ever had and done intensive work on.

Jackal6042

See on the front of the block where its all shiny? This is where the engine code is stamped.. As you can see in this pic its D16Z6. Look there... I bet you $20 it says "D15B7" or "D15B8"...

Well it seems I found the rings. But if it came down to the nitty gritty I could have another short block in and running in probably 3 hours. LOL.. I've done too many swaps to count so I can do them pretty fast. But slow is smooth and smooth is fast. Better to do it right the first time. But if I were racing a clock I could knock it out pretty damn quick.

Jackal6042

UPDATE...

Got the 13011-P07-004 ring in from the dealer and as I figured after reviewing the 96-00 service manual, the rings were perfect. End gap, ring to groove clearances, everything was spot on. Just set the ignition timing and took her for the first test drive, she purrs like a kitten!!! More responsive too having rebuilt the whole damn motor. And of course no burning oil like she was before this project.

Here is some images of the P07 rings and their fitment on the P08 pistons... 100% confirmed, the part number above is the ones to get.

pswann

Thanks for the all the information. Glad you got the right part for the existing pistons. Can you give some more details on your rering. Did you hone, if so did you use the ball hone or the tri-stone hone? Did you have to file the new rings or were you able to able to just shove em in and go? I sold my honda last sunday, looking for another now. This time I will rebuild top and bottom and not just half. I want to be able to do a 3 hour engine swap myself.

pswann

Sold that car but working a deal on another with the same year. This time I will do the top and the bottom but I still want to know how you handled the honing. Did you hone at all or what type hone did you use? I have no problem swapping rings and rod bearings and shoving them back in place with assembly lube. I personally think they would seat and live another 100k miles but I havent actually done it so I want to get an opinion of someone who has done it many times. Thanks!

slow93hatch

i just came upon the same block and it needs rings also and this thread was a relief thanks so much for the info helps a ton

headgasketdisa

man u are a savier!the jdm d15b ring research is so tricky because theyr rare as hell!u are a legend man,i do things the exact same,no bullshit,just straight facts!!!!!

Jackal6042

Hahahaha!! Thanks headgasketdisa! Made my day with that...

I'm glad my little "issue" on the rebuild and researching/solving said issue has helped people.

pswann, my bore wasn't bad. Only slight glazing and no scoring so the block was in really good condition overall. I cleaned the bore using some degreaser and a scouring pad, always moving in the natural crosshatch pattern. Because it wasn't all jacked up I used the wire and abrasive ball type hone. Took measurements again after honing to confirm there was no bore distortion or need for over-sized internals.

Thankfully the rings didn't need any sort of filing, just make sure you verify all your measurements per the service manual. Ring end gap is important for ring expansion with heat.

As a little update on the rebuild, its been over a year now and she is still running stronger than ever of course... Even in the harsh high desert of 29 Palms right now. Not driven daily, but driven enough. I'd say general maintenance on the motor and it has another 100K or more easy. Just be sort of OCD with your builds/rebuilds. Cleanliness, lube, measuring, remeasuring and so on.

attica

dude nice info i got something for you tho.http://www.hondaoriginalparts.com/ho...block_03=15004
let me know if im wrong or right about this.