Honda-Tech - Honda Forum Discussion - Turbo SOHC or All motor DOHC....my conclusion

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Turbo SOHC or All motor DOHC....my conclusion

I've been contemplating this question for a while. I enjoy thinking about it https://honda-tech.com/forums/images/smilies/emwink.gif (oh yeah, I got bored so I figured I do something constructive.)

It is also a question that is asked many times.

There are many variables in this situation, like;

- What kind of horsepower do you want to make?
- How much do you want to spend?
- What kind of driving will you be doing?
- And reliability.

Generally, a all motor car will be more reliable than a turbo car. Although I have seen all motor cars blowing up due to various reasons. Turbo cars too.

Also, usually turbo cars make more power than all motor cars.

Some people like the turbo, some don't.

So, turbo Sohc are N/A dohc? (VTEC of course)

I'll start with some prices. (Courtesy of HMotors.)

2nd gen b16. 170 complete swap. $2250 (Not very much at all!) Not including shipping.
http://www.hmotorsonline.com/shop/im...sir2chgovr.jpg

LSD tranny is extra $300.

b18c1 Integra GS-R motor. 180 HP $3149. Pretty good.
http://www.hmotorsonline.com/shop/images/Dc2Sir.jpg

and the hail Mary the Type R 98+ spec with 4.7 FD J4D LSD $4500 (no shipping price included there!) https://honda-tech.com/forums/images...s/emsmilep.gif

http://www.hmotorsonline.com/shop/images/Dc2Reng.jpg

And of course, those all come with the following:

- ECU
- Axles with Half Shaft
- Shift Linkage
- Stock Motor Mounts
- Alternator
- Starter
- Clutch
- Flywheel
- Intake Manifold
- Exhaust Manifold
- Fuel Rail
- Injectors
- Distributor
- Engine Harness
- All Sensors Needed

Everything you need for a swap.

Now the D series.
d16z6 or d16y8
Choose your OBD.

Note:
The y8 tranny has the steal shift fork. Most say its better. Steal is good.

http://www.garagerival.com/gallery/g...done%20008.jpg
http://www.4thgenerationcivic.com/images/engine4.jpg
(those images were g00gled up.)
http://www.4thgenerationcivic.com/en...16z5_stamp.jpg
mwuhahaha d16z5!! https://honda-tech.com/forums/images...s/emsmilep.gif

Anyway, the D series motors will average about $1000 for a swap. It really depends who you buy one from. I got mine for about $700, but had to buy a clutch and get someone to install it because I knew nothing about Honda's back then! lol....now I can swap trannies and such no problem.

Anyway back on topic.

Let's see, I pic N/A GS-R vs a Turbo d16z6. (Common swaps for a EG hatch)

In stock trim:
- d16z6= 125 HP
- b18c1= 180 HP

Wheel hp range is about 10-25 HP less than what is factory rated at the flywheel.

I guess I will start with a killer N/A setup on the GS-R (no installation prices included!)

- AEM Cold Air intake ~$ 180
- EDELBROCK Intake manifold ~$340
- Pistons and rings for upped compression ~$400-600
- Head job (valves, springs, retainers, P$P, Valve job) ~$2000 (whoa!)
- Cams (Skunk 2) ~$400+
- Cam gears ~$200+ (edelbrock)
- Injectors and Fuel pressure regulator and pump ~$600-800???
- And dyno tuning, usually over $125 and hour.

hmmmm
$ 3250 + about 4400 dollars equals about $7650. Not bad https://honda-tech.com/forums/images/smilies/emwink.gif

And for one less cam and some PSI

- EDELBROCK turbo kit =$3,300 (I like this kit, has everyhting, not shure if it comes with injectors though, I'll assume it does.)
- DYNO tuning ~$125++ per hour

That setup usually yields about 190-200 whp.
and the price is

d16z6- $1000 + $3,300 for the kit = 4,300 dollars. (note, the kit is for a 96+ civic, it'll still work, at least for this comparison https://honda-tech.com/forums/images/smilies/emwink.gif )

$7650 DOHC versus a $4300 SOhc that makes about the same power.

Who would win? The GS-R? The Si? I don't know.

Now lets say you wanted a Turbo Sohc Aaaahhnold style

- Pistons Rods Rings Bearings ~$ 1200+
- Sleeves ~$1500
- Axles ~$400-600
- Intercooler and Turbo ~$1400 (bigger of course)
- Injectors ~ not shure, $400?
- adapter plate may be needed for the new turbo on the Edelbrock manifold.
- and dyno tuning.
- and HONData f00's! https://honda-tech.com/forums/images...s/emsmilep.gif

Thats about 4300(turbo kit and sohc swap) + 8000 minus hondata.
$12,300

I'll assume that setup would make about 400whp.

It would definitely obliterate and NA dohc.

http://wiredspeedlab.com/mmWIRED/ima...rbokit_250.jpg

My conclusion:

TURBO Soch! D series turbo ninja style!

It's just a better deal to me.

Disclaimer:

Of course I left some stuff out, it happens every time. And some stuff is also probably wrong. Just let me know.
And if anyone doesn't want these pics up here, I will take them down no problem.

And don't forget!
Installation and other stuff like clutches and oil is extra!

And if you made more HP for less money, good for you!

w00t!

Modified by Mr. Teal at 7:54 PM 7/5/2004

Modified by Mr. Teal at 8:00 PM 7/5/2004

Re: Turbo SOHC or All motor DOHC....my conclusion (Mr. Teal)

stock D sereis sleeves can hold 400whp with good tuning (not your average hobojoe).

why u singling out my DOHC y0? nice write up

Re: Turbo SOHC or All motor DOHC....my conclusion (Aquafina)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr. Teal »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> lol....now I can swap trannies and such no problem.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I wonder who helped out on that one https://honda-tech.com/forums/images...s/emsmilep.gif

I think you should do what you can afford and not what is "all the rage".
Since you are still in high school I say stick with simple things that are cheap to repair (not a turbo or built N/A).

I honestly think you should stick with stock Honda reliability for now, or until you can afford to modify properly.

this is just my opinion though
have fun and be safe Andrew

-Daniel Beard

Re: Turbo SOHC or All motor DOHC....my conclusion (Mr. Teal)

thanks for the post, I enjoyed reading https://honda-tech.com/forums/images/smilies/emthup.gif

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by swatdog »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">why u singling out my DOHC y0? nice write up</TD></TR></TABLE>

lol thanks

and i do have to give credit to daniel for teaching me how to swap a tranny. https://honda-tech.com/forums/images/smilies/emthup.gif

Re: Turbo SOHC or All motor DOHC....my conclusion (Aquafina)

Re: Turbo SOHC or All motor DOHC....my conclusion (Mr. Teal)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dirtyd463 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I wonder who helped out on that one

I think you should do what you can afford and not what is "all the rage".
Since you are still in high school I say stick with simple things that are cheap to repair (not a turbo or built N/A).

I honestly think you should stick with stock Honda reliability for now, or until you can afford to modify properly.

this is just my opinion though
have fun and be safe Andrew

-Daniel Beard</TD></TR></TABLE> this man took the words right out of my mouth https://honda-tech.com/forums/images/smilies/emthup.gif

muahaha i love living 20 minutes from hmotors :X

Re: Turbo SOHC or All motor DOHC....my conclusion (Icey112)

Re: Turbo SOHC or All motor DOHC....my conclusion (SHAGGY)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SHAGGY »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> http://www.garagerival.com/gallery/g...done%20008.jpg
Tiiite!</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree https://honda-tech.com/forums/images/smilies/emthup.gif

EP

Re: Turbo SOHC or All motor DOHC....my conclusion (Saki0)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Thread Starter »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

$7650 DOHC versus a $4300 SOhc that makes about the same power.

EP</TD></TR></TABLE>

and then be maxed out on the SOHC, and need to do at least some of the internals if you want more out of the "SOHC screamer"... do it right... DOHC. and if you're stuck on FI, turbo the DOHC... that's my story and i'm stickin to it. https://honda-tech.com/forums/images/smilies/emthup.gif

Re: Turbo SOHC or All motor DOHC....my conclusion (citrEK)

Re: Turbo SOHC or All motor DOHC....my conclusion (Art In Motion)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Art In Motion »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
who really needs more than 190-200 whp???</TD></TR></TABLE>My point exactly
Great comparative post though

Re: Turbo SOHC or All motor DOHC....my conclusion (Art In Motion)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Art In Motion »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">who really needs more than 190-200 whp???</TD></TR></TABLE>

::raises hand:: MEEEEE!!!

Re: Turbo SOHC or All motor DOHC....my conclusion (B18Tahtaras)

very nice mr teal
makes me hate my H22A(j/k) and love my little bros freashly swapped D15B VTEC( will be turbo soon!)

Re: Turbo SOHC or All motor DOHC....my conclusion (H22A EG6)

i love it when i get bored and do stuff like this!! nice write up!

Re: Turbo SOHC or All motor DOHC....my conclusion (lude_si_95)

I think a good HP is 200whp. I drove a type R hatch with 193 Whp (stock!) And it was dang fast.

I also rode in a turbo car with 200 whp, it was really fun.

So 200 is a go0d number https://honda-tech.com/forums/images/smilies/emthup.gif

for a hatch anyway https://honda-tech.com/forums/images...s/emsmilep.gif

I was recently faced with a similar dilemma being that I have just gotten rid of my Integra and will be picking up my hatch here in the next few days. I opted for a simple all motor B series build primarily for the purposes of long term reliability. Congrats on your decision though. Keep me informed.

Re: Turbo SOHC or All motor DOHC....my conclusion (citrEK)

Re: Turbo SOHC or All motor DOHC....my conclusion (Aquafina)

I love both SOHC and DOHC, as I have some pretty good examples of each in my 3 hatches. (B16A2 143whp/102 torque to wheels i/h/e, B18C5 176whp/130 torque to wheels i/h/e V-AFC tuned, and 11:1CR D16A6 that hasn't been dyno'd, but beat up on the B16A2 hatch once already.)

I must say that I'd take a swap over a boosted SOHC any day of the week. I'd take a GS-R swap over a boosted SOHC simply because I like reliability.

I don't care what anyone says - boost doesn't last as long as a nearly stock or even mildly built N/A engine.

Also turbo cars' powerbands are too abrupt to be as predictable as a good old N/A DOHC set-up. You have all that boost onset and then you're just spinning tires in 1st and second gears.

I'd take a 200whp N/A DOHC over a 200whp turbo'd SOHC any day of the week as well, and I'd be willing to bet I'd win in a 1/4 mile contest, auto-X, road race, and probably even a highway pull too even though the boosted SOHC will make more peak torque.

Do I feel a debate coming on?

Re: Turbo SOHC or All motor DOHC....my conclusion (citrEK)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by citrEK »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

and then be maxed out on the SOHC, and need to do at least some of the internals if you want more out of the "SOHC screamer"... do it right... DOHC. and if you're stuck on FI, turbo the DOHC... that's my story and i'm stickin to it. https://honda-tech.com/forums/images/smilies/emthup.gif </TD></TR></TABLE>

This thread isn't about who will yield more HP. It's about best bang for the buck. And he over exagerated on alot of those parts. You can have a fully built sohc ready to boost for 400+ for a mere 2500-3000$. Then add a nice turbo setup for another 1500-2000$...thats 5000$ and with a good driver your easily into the mid 11s in a light car.

Re: Turbo SOHC or All motor DOHC....my conclusion (Aquafina)

i also plan on doing this, but in much cheaper and imo a better turbo build

ditch the edelbrock kit and build a custom setup

heres a useful link i found on how to piece together a turbo kit, its for b series but also works very well for a d series and prices are very similar for manifolds and the rest of parts are same thing except usually a smaller snail on the d.

http://www.cse.uconn.edu/~yele....html

also a cheap b series build thats very effective and yields around 190-200 whp (depends on cams)
buy that b16 swap you were talking about, pay the extra for the lsd trans, tear off the block, sell it for a cpl hundred and buy a jdm type r block, get yourself a nice set of ctr cams or even s2s2 cams, get an r manifold or skunk2 manifold, then buy basic i/h/e and your set

b16 w/lsd 2700 (roughly) sell block 300
jdm b18c block 1200-1500
ctr cams 400 (s2s2 cams around 600-700)
itr springs/retainers or higher roughly 200
manifold 300
exhaust 400
intake 150
header 250

total is roughly 5,000 dollars and then tuning on top of that and is totally reliable and good for 190-200 whp

but im still going boosted d series baby https://honda-tech.com/forums/images/smilies/emthup.gif

Re: Turbo SOHC or All motor DOHC....my conclusion (B18C5-EH2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5-EH2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I'd take a 200whp N/A DOHC over a 200whp turbo'd SOHC any day of the week as well, and I'd be willing to bet I'd win in a 1/4 mile contest, auto-X, road race, and probably even a highway pull too even though the boosted SOHC will make more peak torque.

Do I feel a debate coming on?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I would definately disagree with you over the highway pull....my buddy has a GSR with CTR intake cam and i/h/e chipped. I had the Greddy kit on my y8 for a long time. Both of our cars run like shit but boost+bad rings=worse than what he had. Anyway, from 80-120 he couldn't touch me....only reason he was able to keep up was cause of my longer gears. Don't get me wrong a lightly modded type r swap or even gsr swap is nice but god I love boost. https://honda-tech.com/forums/images...s/emsmilep.gif Take away my first and second gear I don't care ^_^ lol...when you can go 14.1@100 mph in a 2600 lb car w/driver on 8 psi....that's not bad.

Re: Turbo SOHC or All motor DOHC....my conclusion (Happyman)

The old thingy-whatever-you-call-it

Fast
Cheap
Reliable