Captain_Fook

'99 Civic LX.

Following a recommendation from a friend who said that this stuff had stopped a power steering squeal totally, I put some of this stuff in yesterday, after flushing and replacing the power steering system with genuine OEM Honda fluid.

After replacing the fluid and working all the air bubbles out of the system, I added the Xado stuff as per the instructions: I mixed it with the bottom of a bottle of fluid and then added the mixture to the reservoir, waited 2-3 minutes and then worked the steering from left to right (with the front of the car jacked up, to prevent tire damage).

After about four of five complete turn cycles, the steering suddenly started to feel very stiff, as if there wasn't any power assistance at all. This has persisted for the 50 miles or so I've driven since.

Has anyone else used this stuff, and is so is this normal? Does the stiffness reduce as the Xado gunk works its way around the system? If so, or not, does anyone have any idea what is going on? Many thanks in advance.

grumblemarc

iTrader: (4)

Your friend drives a Honda or something else?

Captain_Fook

A Honda, but not that model (late '00s Odyssey).

lostforawhile

NEVER put anything with the OEM fluid, most additives will destroy the rack seals pump seals, and any other seal in that system, the Honda fluid is some sort of synthetic blend and isnt compatible with anything

grumblemarc

iTrader: (4)

^ Hence the reason I asked. Lot's of people that do not own Hondas try to recommend non-Honda fluids and the result is never pretty. I can only surmise that if he isn't having issues now then possibly he will.

lostforawhile

this has been going on since the special Honda fluid was invented, people assumed it was just a way for the dealer to make money, selling special fluid, so they dumped in the cheap stuff, then blamed Honda when everything started leaking. The price of the Honda fluid blinds everyone to the damage warning on the reservoir and in the owners manual. I made the mistake once of using lucas power steering stop leak, after I was ASSURED by Lucas that it was compatible, I ended up having to replace the rack, rebuild the pump, rebuild the speed sensor,all the small rubber hoses, and replace the reservoir, since it had a non replaceable filter. Of course Lucas claims it NEVER could have damaged it,went from a drip,to fluid pouring out everywhere in a week

PrettyMuchBoned

I used Lucas p/s fluid and mine is great. Even ran the pump for 10 seconds after disconnecting the hose to clean out all the old stuff

grumblemarc

iTrader: (4)

Riiiiight.

PrettyMuchBoned

Why would someone be using seal swell then blaming it for the problem..

my transmission murdered itself and I used stop slip seal swell when I put in a trans cooler and a new filter, worked better for a while.

grumblemarc

iTrader: (4)

Are you brain dead? The thrust of the thread was that someone recommended it or the product they used guaranteed it was compatible. That's why someone would use it. Go search and see how many horror stories just like this people have posted before you open your mouth.

Captain_Fook

Driving back from a lunchtime meeting I made a U-turn, during which the steering suddenly righted itself. The resistance suddenly went, and the steering felt normal afterwards. Furthermore, I'm no longer hearing a faint whine and gurgling sound when the steering is on full lock, which I was before flushing and replacing the fluid yesterday, and so the stuff may even have worked! That having been said, it could just be the change of fluid which has achieved that. When I got back to the office I checked under the hood, and found that the red cap had blown off the top of the reservoir, and landed between it and the screenwash filler. Thank goodness it didn't get in to any pulleys!

The only explanation for this I can think of is that a big air bubble got into the system when I introduced the Xado gunk (come to think of it, it did froth a bit), and this suddenly dislodged itself and made an explosive exit through the reservoir, pushing the cap off in the process, when I made that U-turn on full left lock.

As for additive compatibility with Hondas, I knew that OEM power steering fluid and automatic transmission oil is essential, because the generic stuff you see at O'Reilly's says clearly on the bottle that it's not recommended for Hondas. However, the guy who recommended the Xado gunk to me should know what he's talking about (as in, has a PhD in engineering), and nowhere on the marketing stuff or packaging does it say that Xado cannot be used in Hondas. Admittedly that means very little, but if the makers of generic power steering fluid are concerned enough about possible lawsuits etc. to warn Honda owners not to use it, you'd have thought that these people would be, too.

What I now have to decide, I guess, is whether to flush the power steering circuit again and replace it with Xado-free Honda fluid.

lostforawhile

it may start leaking later, any of those stop leaks swell the seals, eventually the seal will start leaking worse, the only non Honda fluid I've seen that works is the Honda specific fluid that Nappa sells, but it's a direct equivalent. I would use the Honda fluid but the dealer is 40 miles one way. I've not had any issues with it. I was happy so I bought a case, not cheap though. I don't think bottles that are sealed go bad do they?

TunerN00b

Unopened bottles are fine for years.

Opened bottles, even if re-closed, do go bad over time. Oil and hydraulic fluid (power steering, brake, ATF, etc...) both absorb water from the air and oxidize.

deschlong

iTrader: (8)

Interesting. How do you feel this squares with the fact that that the power steering reservoir under the hood is not an air-tight system yet the power steering fluid has no Honda-recommended replacement interval? I.e., in theory, good for the life of the car.

Captain_Fook

I find Honda's "good for the life of the car" recommendation (and the absence of any published procedure for flushing the fluid, even in the Haynes manual) weird, too.

The fluid I flushed out of my system yesterday was totally opaque - pretty much the same appearance as used engine oil. Assuming that it's been in there since the car was new, it's done 151k miles. The new OEM fluid is about the same color as white wine. Therefore, a significant amount of contaminants must have been suspended in the used fluid I've just got rid of.

I can only presume that Honda's design engineers believe that either the presence of these contaminants does not prevent the fluid from doing its job, or that the life of a typical car from forecourt to scrapyard is shorter than that of the fluid.

TomCat39

I'm not so sure the Xado additive is really to blame but then again anything could be.

You obviously had issues before hand being you were thinking about additives and you did a full flush to see if it helped anything.

If anything the flush didn't help you at all. Also from the way I understand Xado is supposed to work, you just flushed all the microscopic metal out of the fluid with your flush and Xado needs the metal to build it's ceramic/metal hybrid material onto the metal friction surfaces. So in reality you took away the one thing your additive needed to do it's supposed job.

Now maybe without the excessive amount of microscopic metal in the fluid, Xado now becomes a liability in the system, who knows. Also the fresh fluid may also loosen debris in the system and move it else where making things worse.

Also you said flush, do you mean you used a pressurized system to push in new fluid and out old fluid? What specifically was done to "flush" the system?

Xado supposedly doesn't actually change any characteristics of the oil unlike say Lucas products or Forte products etc. The oil is used to carry the microscopic clay (ceramic) around to the friction parts. However, I suppose if some channels were darn near plugged to begin with, maybe, just maybe the extra material finished the clog. Hard to say.

There is just too many factors here to just point the finger at the "revitalizant" additive. I suspect multiple things coincided to create the end result you have.

lostforawhile

all these additives are just snake oil, no different then the crap they sold back in the 50's, just new fancy packages and websites. No different then STP and motor honey brand, if something is leaking the only real solution is to repair it

PrettyMuchBoned

IV used all sorts of Lucas products and they actually do stuff

TomCat39

So molybdenum additive is snake oil just like 50 years ago. I see.

I disagree, there is some actual things based on technology and research that do impact oil quality. It's why the oils now have very complex additive packages unlike 50 years ago when it was pretty much just dino oil with very little added to it.

I agree, many things are just marketing gags, but one thing to do is research, slick 50 has tons of reported problems, as does duralube with it's chlorinated paraffin. On the other hand Lucas oil stabilizer has been being used for many years without lots of reported problems (the stop leak on the other hand...), or Marvel Mystery Oil who some old timers use on everything and swear by it. MMO has been used for over 50 years by some with next to no ill effects and a great many benefits such as never getting sticking oil control rings etc.

Not everything is snake oil even though a great majority is, you just need to research first.

Captain_Fook

The sheet that came with the Xado said "Note: if fluid is opaque, old and contaminated, REPLACE fluid before treating!". My fluid was certainly opaque, almost certainly very old and probably contaminated, so I replaced it.

Return pipe disconnected from reservoir, an extension hose spliced to it and the other end placed in a one-gallon bottle. Five bottles of new OEM fluid were opened and lined up. I then asked my wife to start the engine and be ready to cut it when I gave the word. I poured new fluid into the top of the reservoir as the old stuff was being pumped out into the bottle, until the stuff coming through the (tranparent) hose became clear, at which point I asked her to cut the engine. I then reconnected the return hose to the reservoir, jacked up the front of the car and then we restarted the engine. My wife worked the steering back and forth until all the air bubbles had come out of the reservoir, at which point I topped off the reservoir to the max mark and added the Xado. That's when the fun started...

Agreed on the skepticism/snake oil comments in general. However, this stuff was recommended by someone I've known a long time and trust, $15 on Amazon wasn't much to lose and nothing I read online about this gave any suggestion that it could cause any damage (though there are plenty of clearly knowledgable reviewers who have concluded that it probably does nothing much).

TunerN00b

Heat helps remove the water, which keeps the fluid in active circulation "good" longer.

Other than that, "good for the life of the car" is typically true for most sheeple. The typical enthusiast who expects more, changes those things anyway, to preserve performance.

Also, "goes bad" isn't the best term to use. I should have tried to be more precise. "Optimal" and "good" aren't the same thing. Apologies.

Brake fluid, for example, is still perfectly usable as it ages, but the boiling point decreases over time. Normal driving, generally not an issue. Enthusiast driving on track, potential issue.

Brake lines have no replacement interval. Drive an older car (15+ years) on it's original lines and then one with fresh, OEM rubber lines. World of difference in feel, but not an issue to not replace them.

I assume that anyone taking the time to learn these things or do their own work cares enough to want optimal performance, even if that means replacing perfectly usable items.

Power steering fluid is hydraulic fluid. It will absorb water over time. Fluids are cheap. I replace them at regular intervals, regardless of whether they're still usable or not.

My $0.02 anyway.

TomCat39

Okay. So not a power flush, just a solid fluid exchange.

Very well could be the additive finish clogging up some part or another. As others have pointed out, Honda Power Steering fluid is not your average every day power steering fluid so is likely to be extra sensitive.

I understand your position. I still tend to avoid trying anything foreign and new unless the part is on it's last legs. The thought then is, I got nothing to lose except 15 bucks, the thing is about to die anyway so if the 15 bucks helps for awhile great, if not, I'm already looking at replacing.

Personally, I think I would have done the fluid exchange, added a magnefine power steering filter and seen if I had issues with the fluid swap alone before trying some additive.

You can always pull your out hose that goes from the pump to the rack and have your wife just crank the car and shut it off immediately (don't want to start it just crank it over a second or two) and see if the power steering pump is pumping. If it is, then it probably isn't the pump but instead something plugged in the rack preventing fluid flow. If the pump isn't pumping then it's just a matter of swapping the pump and maybe not the rack.

Captain_Fook

The power steering behaved itself without any further stiffness throughout the journey home. I think it must have been an airlock, and not any solid object causing the blockage. The cap was still on the reservoir when I got back this time, and once the engine had cooled down the fluid level looked normal. I shone a powerful flashlight through the reservoir just to be sure that there was no foreign object floating around in it, but could not see any.

I couldn't hear the slight squealing/gurgling at full lock on the way home, either, and if anything the steering even seemed more responsive than before the fluid change and Xado addition (though this could be just wishful thinking on my part).

Unless the stiff steering comes back again I think I'm just going to let sleeping dogs lie at the moment, while keeping a close eye out for any sign of a drop in the reservoir level. Thanks for everyone's suggestions.

PrettyMuchBoned

You never had any real problem with it before? Just noises, no usability issues?

lostforawhile

if you've got 15 year old rubber lines, they need to go, saving money by keeping them is foolish, they flex every time you push the brake pedal, and after enough cycles they develop cracks, they might look fine on the outside but you can't see the inner hose, I've had one fail and nearly hit a tree, as well as a lot of others in the older Honda community. They do not have an unlimited life span. Thats really bad advice saying they will be just fine.