roxics

Bought a 98 Civic 4 door yesterday. Should have brought a mechanic, if I knew one. You'd think that living in Detroit I would know a mechanic.

Noticed a knock when I drove it over bumps. Thought it might be a strut or at worst an engine mount. Asked the seller (a wholesaler) to get it checked out since they have a mechanic shop. They checked it out and told me it was an engine mount. Quoted me a price. I called another mechnaic closer to home and he quoted me a very similar price from my description of the problem. So I figured, not a big deal, couple hundred dollars and this car is worth it to me.

Took it to that same mechanic today and he told me the right side lower control arm to the sub frame is rotted out, and it needs a whole new subframe. Basically told me I got scammed and should try to get my money back. Which of course I can't. The wholesaler told me I can bring it back to them, pay them what they quoted me yesterday a couple hundred and they would fix it. But they were quoting me for a problem that was totally different than what the mechanic is telling me is wrong with the vehicle.

I paid $1550 for the car and it has 224k miles on it. Which was high I knew, But it was meant to be a second car, a backup after I buy another slightly nicer car. The engine feels strong and I drove it an hour home from where I bought it yesterday without any problems. Drove straight like it was perfectly aligned. Car is super clean, just a touch of rust above one rear quater panel and inside the gas cap area. Manual trans shifts nice and smooth. Engine feels strong even with that many miles on it. Doesn't appear to have any leaks, although the mechanic told me the right side CV boot leaks.

It's almost hard for me the believe what the mechanic is telling me based on how it drives. Aside from the knock when it hits bumps or stops quick.

The mechanic told me about $900-$1300 to get it all fixed and basically told me it wasn't worth it. He told me to bring whatever car I'm looking to buy into his shop next time for a $50 full inspection before buying. But I don't know. I love this car. I just bought it and I can't get my money back and would feel like a total jerk trying to resell it to someone if it's as bad as he is saying it is.

Maybe I should get it inspected by another mechanic. Any thoughts or ideas? I wish i knew more about cars. I'm trying to learn, but it's an expensive process.

98civdx

Jack up the car and varify the issues.


Then fix the issues.

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

Snap some pics of the subframe and lets see whats really damaged, and how bad it is.

testify

A front subframe is easy to replace on these cars. Shouldn't take more than an hour with a couple jackstands and basic hand tools. And there have to be plenty of them sitting at JY's.

Your mechanics price of $900-$1300 doesn't sound unreasonable either (as long as that includes the part).

roxics

The mechanic was telling me the entire thing is rotted out and the bolts are rounded and would need to be cut out. Also mentioned something about welding and buying a subframe from out of state because everything up here in Michigan is bound to be rusted.

I don't have jacks, only some basic hand tools. I've changed my disc brakes and alternators and my oil, but that's about as mechanical as I've ever gotten with a car. I'm more of a computer modding guy. I don't even know how I would get this vehicle up to take pictures to show you guys.

But from what it sounds like, you guys all seem kind of positive. Like it's not that big of deal, which feels like a relief. I kept getting the impression from the mechanic the engine was going to fall out and the world was going to end. Even though he never said either of those things. But I've drove clunkers and this doesn't feel like a clunker to me at all, it feels really solid except for the knock here and there over bumps and accelorate or slow down too quickly.

Do you guys think I should take it to another mechanic and see what they say?

testify

Well, the engine could in fact fall out a bit, or a control arm could come flying off. Definitely a bad idea to drive the car in its current condition if its as bad as you mechanic is making it sound.

Here's a link to a JY subframe that is for sale: http://www.ebay.com/itm/97-98-99-00-...bfc48a&vxp=mtr

You can have it shipped to your house or probably cheaper to ship it to a business address like your mechanics address.


Edit: don't know if the subframe differs between the auto and manual (probably just the rear motor mount is different, and you swap your old.mount over), but this one is cheaper: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1997-HONDA-C...4025a8&vxp=mtr

roxics

He said I could probably drive it but he didn't know for how long. But it's my only car right now. I had planned to buy another honda as well for around $2500-$3000. But if I do that I can't get this one fixed any time soon. Not enough money.

So right now I have to make choice. Do I get this one fixed and sink $1300 into it or buy something else and eventually (March maybe) get this one fixed and just use it as is for now.

My goal was originally to buy two cars, one for me and one for my girlfriend to use, because we're sick of sharing a loaner we had to get to and from work. We just lost the loaner this week and don't have a way to get to anywhere. I work days and she works nights. So I dipped into my IRA and pulled out some money. Could have spent $5K-6K on one nicer car for just myself, but figured I'd buy two cheaper Hondas so we'd both have a car until she can buy one herself early next year with her student loans. So I bought this one with the idea that is was the cheaper one she could use until February and I just buy another one for myself. But I didn't estimate this car would be as bad as the mechanic is making it out to be.

At this point I'm almost scared to buy another car. Scared of not knowing what I'm going to get myself into and not have any money left over to get either one fixed. So it almost seems like it would make more sense to fix this one, even with the high miles on it.

Of course I still have to teach my girlfriend how to drive a stick.

98civdx

Subframes/ lca's aren't that bad. Assuming the bolts come out. If they don't and lots of sware words will be thrown around.

Big question, are you, or do you know anyone capable of swaping a subframe?

roxics

Yeah they have to cut the bolts out because it's all rusted out. He said it looked like the car had been parked in a field or something and just left to rust on the bottom from the humidity. But the body itself is not bad.

Here is a video of the engine being turned on, gas being pushed, shut off and the exterior body.

http://youtu.be/m4mjYKeGdTs

I can't really get underneath it well to shoot photos of the actual subframe.
Here is the best I could get:

Front
http://roxics.com/98civic/civic-front.jpg

Back
http://roxics.com/98civic/civic-back.jpg

Exterior
http://roxics.com/98civic/civic-exterior.jpg

You can slightly see the only exterior rust above the wheel on the front of the back quarter panel. That's as bad as it gets, which is hardly anything in my opinion and could easily be fixed. So overall the body appears in great shape, the interior is super clean and the engine feels good even with that many miles. I can't see why the mechanic thinks this vehicle is a lost cause all because of the subframe. But maybe I'm just clueless.

Fnix

iTrader: (1)

new exhaust piping?

grumblemarc

iTrader: (4)

It is the front subframe we're talking about right?

roxics

Yup, front sub frame.

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

I think he sees a car he can flip easilly...
Take it someplace else, dont tell them you took it someplace already and have them reassess it.
The subframe isnt a hard piece to replace.
Id like to see these rounded off bolts the mechanic speaks of.
can you park it on a curb and crawl under it to shoot some pics?

Axatax

Why are you even sweating this??

If you like the car, replace the rusted LCA and enjoy driving it. Your engine isn't going to fall out (it's not supported by the subframe except for the rear tranny mount).

I'll bet every Honda in your area is driving around with the exact same subframe rust.

98civdx

I came to say this.

roxics

I'll know more tomorrow. My brother called, reminded me that my uncle does a lot of auto repair work. Completely forgot. I hardly see or talk to this uncle. He has a lift and does frame work and everything. Supposed to have him take a look tomorrow morning. I'll take some pictures while it's up. This is the best news I got all day long. Hopefully what he tells me tomorrow is good news as well.

I drove the car around today, in the rain as well. Hardly any knocking, drove just fine. Nice and quick too.

GuidowithVtec

someone somewhere along the line of owners deff. lived by salt water.

Axatax

You're sweating over zilch.

You have a good looking car. Body panels line up well and paint seems consistent.

I'd be more interested in why the exhaust system was modified. What was sitting in that engine bay before you bought the car? What does your wiring look like near the ECU? I'd be 10000% more concerned about *minor* _hairline_ scratches near the engine mount bolts than a 95% rusted out subframe.

Mother nature is at least somewhat predictable. The average EG/EJ owner, not so much.

That car probably had a swap or boost at one time, and I'd be more concerned with those modifications than rust on the sub frame (which is a complete and total non-issue).

JMHO.

98civdx

^ I'd have to agree. Subframes really aren't a big deal. even less if you have conections to someone who has some experience.

v8killaz

umm no the car is bonestock. look at it. never beeen boosted or anything. what even gives you the slightest idea it was boosted before, because its a honda.

the car looks fine dude. the car does have more rust than what a normal honda would have on the underbody but probably driven alot in the snow/salt down here.

there is absolutely nothing wrong with the subframe if that car hasnt been hit

Axatax

Unless I'm blind (and I've been called worse), there is flex pipe between the down pipe and resonator (ie. - where the catalytic converter should be). That would seem like a big red flag that this is not stock exhaust (and hence, not a stock car, beside the fact this section of exhaust is the only part of the under body lacking any rust!!)

Your defensiveness is somewhat suspicious as both you and the OP are in Michigan??

Still not a deal-breaker. Easily a $1500.00 car.

98civdx

car appears to be a DX/LX, so the cat would be built into the exhuast manifold.
but I will say, the exhuast definetly isn't OEM. But that doesn't mean the car was modifed.

A exhuasts rotting out isn't that uncommon. Mine did, and it spent all it's life in WA.

Axatax

No. I'm a Honda owner (def. not a hater), but my Honda is in Florida so I don't have any rust problems.

You seem particularly (*very*) tuned-in to the rust issue with your own car (so much so you are looking for a car from "the south" in the thread referenced below from 2010), but are defending the OPs new car vigorously (w/rusted sub-frame, enough so you are stating it has never been modified, boosted or swapped, and seem personally offended at this suggestion). How one would determine this without a hands-on inspection is also suspect.

I don't think it's any stretch of the imagination to determine you're the seller of the OP's car.

http://hondamarketplace.com/showthread.php?t=2746271

roxics

I bought it from a wholesaler up in Waterford who said they got it from Jackson. They had an mechanic shop in the back of their dealership.

If I had to guess, they buy cheap cars and then do basic hackjobs on them like the exhaust pipe just to get it sold. Which is why that part looks newer but suspect. It should have been a red flag to me that they didn't fix the engine mount. Because if it were as simple enough as a $200 engine mount job they would have just done it and sold the car for a little more.

I'll find out more later this morning when I take it to my uncle's. And I'll post more pictures.

v8killaz

wow you make very little sense in you comments.
the car has a flex pipe guys its def. been boosted and swapped