Blackmugensi

OK, here's the story and let me know what you gurus think could be the problem...

Upgrading my brakes on my 00 Si, decided to go w/ Brembo OEM rotors, hawk r/endless f pads, motul 600, and Goodridge SS lines. I also painted my stock calipers...Rotors went in fine, bolted lines right up..no kinks or problems, filled up resivoir and started bleeding. BLED brakes for HOURS till I was out of daylight...came back next day, bled again to hardly any avail. Get no pedal on 1st pump, after several pumps get enough to stop but feels like ****. Checked all connections, no leaks whatsoever (perdy straightfoward on the install afterall).

Brakes were decent enough to get it down to HONDA dealership.

Here's where the fun starts....tech said I needed a new master cyl...something about pulling an o-ring off when I first pumped them ($200+labor). I say OK, after narrowing it down to that (no calipers aren't froze, plenty of ALLLLL fluid coming out of bleeders). They keep my car and overnight in a MC...put it on today, NOT THE PROBLEM! Here's what he said is the problem now (I'm skeptical):

Said the SS lines were too small of an ID (they are std. goodridge for a Si) and they aren't letting enough fluid fill the caliper piston on each pump.

To me that's BS, cause the small lines would just cause a stiff *** pedal due to the increase in pressure. Once the system is bled there isn't any space to be "filled" in the calipers correct? Now there're telling me I still have to pay for the MC, because it has had fluid ran through it (even though mine was fine), and now they insist the lines go back to the OEM ones. Basically the whole hydraulic system (down to the fluid now) is going to be stock. I am doubtful that the lines are the problem.

Can anyone give me any suggestions as to something we are overlooking? Could there be a problem w/ the proportioning valve or any other kind of resuidal (1 way) valve in the system? I need to get home from school for the summer and this is driving me NUTS! Thanks guys...

piscorpio

There must be others with ss lines here, maybe they could give thier 2 cents.

I know when I did my brake swap, it still felt a little mushy, nothing dangerous but just not stiff. After a day or two of driving it stiffened up and feels fine.

If you already checked for leaks, bled properly, checked the calipers and you know the MC is good, not sure what else could be wrong?

kommon_sense

Honestly... sounds to me like you just didn't bleed the brakes right and the tech guys are just guessing at your wallet's expense...

I bled my brakes incorrectly a while back and had a similar problem. Almost no brakes on first pump, but it would build up after a few pumps. I rebled the brakes, in the proper order, got a buddy to pump the brake, and got all of the air out of my lines. After that, felt like I could stop on a dime.

So EXACTLY (complete detail, make no assumptions) how did you bleed the brakes? And in what order did you bleed them?


Modified by kommon_sense at 4:44 PM 5/20/2003

dejay

man, i worked at a honda lot (sunnyside honda) in cleve. they can't make you buy that mc, their tech said you needed it and he was wrong, so talk to the general manager and make a big enough deal about it and they'll put your old one back one. just remind them that their techs go to honda school's and he made the wrong decision, not you

Pho Real

I had the same SS lines you have and they worked without a problem. Also I was running ITR brakes so the dealership may be wrong.

piscorpio

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kommon_sense &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Honestly... sounds to me like you just didn't bleed the brakes right and the tech guys are just guessing at your wallet's expense...</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's what I was thinking too. Make sure you used the proper sequence/procedure given in the Helms manual (rear passenger side, front driver side, rear driver side, front passenger side). Be sure you recieved the proper ss lines as well. Also, make sure your calipers aren't binding up, either from a siezed pin or rolled caliper boot (heard that this sometimes causes a problem).

EDIT - Actually, I don't think that would cause soft pedal feel anyway, Ive had that happen to me (siezed pin). Just bleed properly, and give it some time, if it readjusts and firms up you will be ok.

leadfoot78

Next time don't go to the dealership, get a Haines or Helms manual and do it right, there is a certain order in which you have to bleed the breaks and each calliper has to be done separately, every caliper has brakes connected to it but the lines are all diff lenghts, look into that its not as easy as bleeding your clutch.

tonyxcom

if they changed yuor MC, that means they had to rebleed the entire system, so I would assume they bled it correctly.

Even though I don't think it is the SS Lines, try going back to stock to see what happens, then let them rebleed the system again.

00MRSi

Oh man, you got OWNED by those idiots/thieves at Honda.. Sounds like you didn't bleed properly. I would definitely make a big deal out of their "mis-diagnosis".. That's bullshit.. Get your money back for the MC..

Blackmugensi

Thanks guys...

I bled the brakes first here at home several times (days actually hahah) and I went in the order from my helms, RR, LF, LR, RF. Had friend pump fully and slowly 3-4 times then hold pressure, cracked bleeder and collected fluid, shut bleeder before lifting up pedal, and repeated a few times on each corner till no air anymore. The guys at honda did the same thing, although they said to do a different order. These techs didn't seem like the quickest, and I was giving them more assistance/tips than a customer "should know" haha.

I can't see how it's the SS lines, they aren't too small, and that wouldn't make a dead first pump and mushy succeding pumps anyways...too small would be really stiff pumps because the pressure would go up. Does it have to do w/ the volume of fluid moved. What ID are the SS lines you are using?

About the MC, the dealership said since they put fluid through it, it can't be sent back. I said why didn't the tech do a pressure or vacuum test of some sort on the old MC or check the seals before taking the new one out of the box. He said because of my aftermarket stuff being "assumed" correct, the next order in line was the MC and I authorized it. I already raised hell to no avail, they said I will pay "their cost"...RIGHT. $176...even though it is $136 on http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com

Do you think they need power bled, I still think they just need bled more or better because of the amt. of air? Thanks again guys...

Evil_Wizard

Here is what I would do. Get a regular oil can. The kind that has the handle to squirt oil. Fill it with Brake fluid. Then take the bleeder valve loose and force the fluid back up through the lines up toward the master cylinder. Make sure the cap is off, and do this until there is nothing but fluid running out. Air naturally wants to rise so this is the best way I know of to get the brakes bled. I used clear fuel line to put over the end of the squirt can and the bleeder valve.

ruthless013

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blackmugensi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Had friend pump fully and slowly 3-4 times then hold pressure, cracked bleeder and collected fluid, shut bleeder before lifting up pedal, and repeated </TD></TR></TABLE>

i think this is your problem. pretty sure bleeder needs to be cracked open while pumping, dude. but when the dealer did it, they should have done it right. weird.

Blackmugensi

Oil can idea.....That's exactly how my dad said to do it (lots of car/racing/forklift crazy brakes experience). Will bring this up to the service techs now that the car is "stuck" there. Don't think you open the bleeder while gettin the pressure/air to build up @ the caliper. Open bleeder while pumping would suck air back in through bleeder on upstroke of the pedal...unles you have http://www.speedbleeder.com .


Shouldn't a dealership:
a.) have OEM civic lines in stock (I had to order one that I cut to protect where my SS one was rubbing my steering knuckle)
b.) have a powerbleeding system of some sorts, even the one just described w/ the oil can.
c.) know what the **** they are doing, and know that SS lines will not totally change the brake system.

Starting to get a bit pissed haha, Thanks guys...keep the help comin'

ruthless013

lol, i do have speedbleeders, but even before then it was open bleeder, pump down, close bleeder, pump up. repeat as necessary. speedbleeders let you just pump away, no air gets in.

i've been searching, and there seems to be a bit of gray area here when it comes to the correct procedure - must consult manual...

B_CRUZ!

if they replaced your m/C, they better have bench bled it first.

137

there was a dude here who just posted the CORRECT WAY to bleed your brakes, sounds like you pumped them to all hell and blew your master cylinder o ring...

happens all the time

Blackmugensi

That's what we thought..that's why I had the MC replaced. From that point honda did the install/bleeding, they shoulda knew how to do it w/o blowing any o-ring, and I should hope they knew to bench bleed it if it's in the normal procedure. This has got me perdy pissed...argh

Campee

I realize this comment isn't particularly useful, but why on earth did you take your car to a dealer? I've always had the worst experiences with them. I know very little about cars and they have given me horrible advice or theories as to what could be wrong with my car when I have minor problems.

Blackmugensi

I was so aggrivated at how much we had to bleed, and still no real changes in the pedal feel, that I figured we were doin something wrong, or they had to be powerbled etc. I agree that I hate ANYone else workin on my car, and dealers are usually retards.

fuzzynutz

that sucks

leadfoot78

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blackmugensi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Oil can idea.....That's exactly how my dad said to do it (lots of car/racing/forklift crazy brakes experience). Will bring this up to the service techs now that the car is "stuck" there. Don't think you open the bleeder while gettin the pressure/air to build up @ the caliper. Open bleeder while pumping would suck air back in through bleeder on upstroke of the pedal...unles you have http://www.speedbleeder.com .


Shouldn't a dealership:
a.) have OEM civic lines in stock (I had to order one that I cut to protect where my SS one was rubbing my steering knuckle)
b.) have a powerbleeding system of some sorts, even the one just described w/ the oil can.
c.) know what the **** they are doing, and know that SS lines will not totally change the brake system.

Starting to get a bit pissed haha, Thanks guys...keep the help comin'</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thats why you put a little hose on the bleeder valve and submerge that in new brake fluid, if you didn't do that then you would just be warking against your self. And if you dont open the valve and pump then the air will never come out it will just get compressed a little.

kommon_sense

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ruthless013 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">lol, i do have speedbleeders, but even before then it was open bleeder, pump down, close bleeder, pump up. repeat as necessary. speedbleeders let you just pump away, no air gets in.

i've been searching, and there seems to be a bit of gray area here when it comes to the correct procedure - must consult manual...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hate to tell you this, but speedbleeders suck. How do I know? I have a set. I just opened the valve and pumped away, closed it and thought that I was done. I had so much air in my lines that it wasn't funny. After a few near misses and almost-accidents, I decided to rebleed the brakes. This time I bled as if I had regular bleeder screws. I opened the valve. Had my buddy push the pedal. I closed the valve and had my buddy release the pedal... In that order.

As for order, you bleed RR, LF, LR, RF. I got this straight my 96-00 Helms.

Blackmugensi

Just a quick update:

Dealership called today and said (suprise...suprise) that putting the OEM lines back on made no difference. Anyways...They bought a $400 power bleeding system??? And said they used it for 3 hrs today to no success. Were on the phone w/ the HONDA tech support line @ 5 today, and said hopefully it will be done tomorrow. This is crazy...entire hydraulic system is now bone stock, w/ a brand new master cyl. This is gonna end up bein a lot to go through to now just have new pads, rotors, and (honda) fluid. When I get home from school me and dad will get the SS lines back on (and bled) though.

00MRSi

Sucks that you had to find out the hard way how incompetent most of the dealers are.. Next time to exactly what you said, you and your DAD work on the car. As you mentioned in your earlier posts, I'm sure your dad has experience working on cars.. Good luck.

Blackmugensi

Yeah...hard way to learn a lesson. I woulda done it all myself @ my race shop up home, but unfortuantely that is 500 mi. awayin PA (I'm still at school in NC). Wish now this impatient kid woulda waited till I got home to undertake this project, now I can't get home at all haha. This best be settled by the weekend. Thanks guys...