Koko4

I replaced my rear drum brake shoes about two months ago, and recently I noticed they started feeling like they weren't stopping well enough. I lifted the rear tires and spun them, and they spun very easily without any resistance whatsoever. I took off the drums and adjusted the adjusting screw outwards until I felt some resistance while spinning the drums.

After doing this, they seem to be a bit better, but I thought the self-adjusting screw was supposed to keep me from having to do this? When I installed them the first time, they worked fine for awhile. When I changed them originally, I got them fairly close to adjustment and then assumed the adjusting screw would take care of the rest for me..

The wheel cylinders are fine..I replaced one when I did the brake shoes originally, and I'm certain the brakes are bled. I tried getting at the back of the adjusting screw, through the rear of the drum (with the wheel on) with no luck. Is it even possible?? I hate having to adjust the screw, put the drum on, test it, fight to get it back off, and adjust again.

Sorry if this seems idiotic, but this was my first time working on drums and I am not too comfortable with the system yet. I guess my main questions are: do I need to keep adjusting the screw out as the brakes wear? Is it possible to adjust this screw without removing the drum?

What is the proper method for adjusting the drums? I have been told conflicting things..one guy said that after adjustment, you should put the tire on and spin it - and it should give about one full rotation before stopping. Another said to rock the drum back and forth, and you should just feel a LITTLE bit of resistance against the shoes. Another said to adjust the adjusting screw all the way out until it's as far as it can be against the drum (from the back - through the little oval hole in the drum) and then back off a click or two. Thanks for any help.

EDIT: Are there rear disc brakes that would work on my vehicle? It's a 97 Civic LX (sedan). I would love to be able to throw some calipers, rotors, and pads on it and forget all about the drums... I guess I'd have to replace the hub too...more trouble than it's worth?

goldsy

I hate drum brakes. They are ugly and a real pain to change. I'm really not sure what your issue is but you shouldn't feel any resistance when you spin your rear wheels. The shoes should be about 2mm from the drums.

Regarding your disc brake question. The swap isn't as hard as you may think. I recently did the disc brake swap on my 97 hatch. There are a bunch if threads here in how to do them. I have trailing arms with hubs from a 97 integra but any 94-01 Integra will work. I also have Integra calipers, rotors and pads and 99-00 Si (SiR for Canadians like me) rear brake lines and e-brake cables. I did the entire swap in under 3 hours.

jbpnoman

No, you do not need to continually adjust the screw. You also cannot properly adjust it the way you're trying to. You put the car in reverse, accelerate to ~5MPH, then slam on the brakes. Repeat at 10MPH. Repeat at 15MPH x2, and they should be properly adjusted.

Koko4

Thank you both for the quick responses. Goldsy - I am going to look for that thread and look into price to see if I want to go that route. It sure would be nice to have front AND rear disc..

And jbpnoman - I was trying something similar but I slammed them going forward..guess that defeated the purpose. Saw it on an Ericthecarguy video, if I remember correctly. I will try the reverse technique tomorrow. That will definitely save me some unwanted drum-disassembly time.

MAD_MIKE

Make sure the jack screw is clean, relube it with anti-seize. The screw can become gummed up and jammed to the point where it will not auto adjust. The teeth on the star wheel can also wear, make sure the self adjusting lever is able to grab the teeth of the star adjuster.

jbpnoman

Yeah, most people make the forward slam mistake. That's how you properly seat pads. With shoes, according to the FSM, it's done in reverse.

MadVladCivic

If you do not wish to access the star adjuster thru the backing plate,
then you have to use the triangulation method of adjustment. The idea
is to have the shoe surface an infinitesimal distance from the drum surface
wo/ rubbing. Think about it: 2mm gap vs 0.2mm gap. The 0.2mm
gap is more desirable as it requires less pedal travel to achieve contact.

1) adjust your shoes and replace the tire
2) spin tire w/ some oomph behind it (there is no meter
to measure oomph--see the Nate McCullough vid at Youtube
for a description of "oomph")
3) tire should spin 1 revolution
4) if not, depending on how close it is, repeat 1-3)
5) repeat 1-3) until you get the 1 rev or pretty close

It should take 2 and maybe 3 attempts.

I have used "oomph" to get 1 revolution as well as something
approaching no "oomph". Pedal firmness was not that much
different.

Yes, the only position of the adjuster screw you can know exactly is
when the shoe is up against the drum surface. You can then back it
off by degrees. But that requires pulling and putting the drum back
on 2, 3, 4 times??

brians356

MadVladCivic,

Is this manual shoe adjustment procedure in the Helms manual? Specifically any reference to "1 revolution" of the mounted wheel. Can you provide the page, or page number?

Brian

grumblemarc

iTrader: (4)

How about Google for the manual and download it instead of bumping an old thread? Maybe even a private message to MadVladCivic?

brians356

grumblemarc,

Thanks, that's so helpful.

I have the Helms manual PDF, all 1200+ pages, thanks.

The reason I asked the question was I cannot find his reference in that manual. Since I posted a few minutes ago, I looked up the "Nate" video, and guess what? He's discussing generic drum brake adjustment, not Honda Civic.

In the Helms manual (Page 19-32 "Rear Brake Shoes, Reassembly"), it says (in part):

"Clean the threaded portion of clevises A and B"
"Coat the threads of clevises with grease."
"To shorten the clevis, turn the adjuster bolt."

Nothing about adjusting clevis to a particular length! Install everything, springs, clips, etc., then:

"Install the brake drum."
"Depress brake pedal several times to set the self-adjusting brake."
"Adjust the parking brake ..."

That's it. Nothing about manually adjusting the shoes relative to the drum at all. I.e. the self-adjuster clip is suppose to turn the clevis (star wheel) and set everything automatically by simply pressing the pedal several times.

So I no longer need a reference for the "1 revolution" part, it ain't in there, and it ain't pertinent.

Brian

MadVladCivic

I replied earlier but do not see the posting.

See videos at YOUTUBE by Nate McCullough. Its a 17 (?) part
series, each vid about 1-2min long, covering drum brake rebuild
from start to finish. In the vid covering shoe adjustment, he
expands the shoes far enuf such that it takes him palm pounding
on the drums at the 3 and 9 o'clock positions to get them back on.
Then, he shows how to get that 1 revolution on the tires before
doing the final adjustment via the access port in the backing plate.

I have adjusted to the extent where I got 1 revolution w/ just a
flick of the wrist and to the extent where I had to put some
"oomph" behind the push. End result was similar: break pedal
felt nicely firm. The difference in gap btw/ the shoes and the
drum surface in the two cases might be equiv to the thickness of
a sheet of filler notebook paper. Did not bother to fine adjust via
the access port in the backing plate either time.

brians356

MadVladCivic,

Thanks for the additional information.

I have been adjusting drum brake shoes as you (and Nate M.) describe for over 60 years, on dozens of my own vehicles over the decades, as old as 1946 vintage and currently a '59 Porsche, and up through 70s models, foreign and domestic. It is a good generic description of adjusting standard drum brakes which are not self-adjusting. I personally prefer somewhat less shoe engagement, just a barely audible hissing indicating slightest drag. In the case of my Porsche, the factory-prescribed method is to adjust the shoes tight against the drum, then back off the star wheel adjuster, say, 1/2 turn (I don't recall.)

However, the exhaustive Helms manual for G5 Civic should describe such a procedure if it applied here, and it does not mention it. So, with all due respect, I must conclude it is not applicable to the Civic, with the possible exception being improvising in the case of an inoperative self-adjust mechanism.

I also do not believe your drum brake shoe adjustment will affect your pedal firmness in any way. On vehicles running drums all 'round it could affect pedal free play, but not firmness.

Brian

MadVladCivic

Oh, I get it. I had to course adjust because in the first case,
I was doing an inspection and it was the first time I had
ever seen a drum brake before and they looked almost brand new
(this on a 14yr old car!); I was afraid that they were not working
so I needed to see for myself. So, I had someone apply the brakes
wo/ the drum in place. That time, I adjusted to get 1 revolution w/
the flick of the wrist. The most recent time involved replacement of
wheel cylinders. That is where I put the "oomph" behind it
to get 1 revolution.

Otherwise, yes, the self-adjusters seem to do a pretty good job
of keeping the shoes and drums in appropriate orientation.

There is no description that I can find for adjustment of drums in the
Honda service manny either.

When I mentioned firmness, I was referring more to the pedal travel
to get response. I noticed little if any diff in pedal travel following
either of the the modes of attaining 1 revolution. However, I noticed
too much increase in travel w/ a leaky wheel cyl.

Well, it seems to me that you can't really go wrong by adjusting the
shoes right up against the drums to the point that you could barely
get the drum back on. You can then back off thru the access port
in the backing plate per the hissing noise. Nate M mentions this as
well. He allows you to hear the slight dragging in one of the vids.

brians356

I should add that I'm surprised the manual doesn't at least mention adjusting the clevis length on the short side but "in the ballpark" to try to minimize the number of pedal cycles required to self adjust.

Brian

Koko4

You can get access to the star adjusting bolt through the back of the drum, yes, but once you adjust it out, you can't adjust it back in any further right? That's the whole purpose of the self-adjustment mechanism - to hold it in place once it's adjusted out, and only let it adjust OUT more as the brake shoes wear. So in essence, if you adjust it out too much you have two options: take the drum off and adjust it back in a bit, or just ride with it like that and let it wear down to where the shoes are barely (or not) making contact with the drum. I did that on my Jeep which has drums all the way around, and after having a hissing sound for the first 5 miles or so, it's fine. Would that be a viable option?

MadVladCivic

I believe you can adjust in either direction thru the access port in the
backing plate--push or pull. I think the adjusting spoon is shaped
for just such a reason.

Extending the shoes out to the point where you can just get the drums
on and then backing them off a bit via the access port seems to be
the most intuitive approach: You know exactly where the shoes are
relative to the drum, now just back them off a hair.