stevieteg

Car: 1993 Civic Si, factory D16Z6 w/ 162k on the clock

Problem: The clutch chatters violently upon engagement. Right now I have the ES poly torque mount inserts to reduce the chatter, which do help, but now my car rattles and drives me absolutely insane and the clutch still chatters.

Solution: I'm replacing both the clutch and flywheel and getting new 3 new oem honda engine mounts as well as some other misc bearings.

List of what I'm buying/replacing to fix clutch chatter:

Exedy oem clutch replacement (includes throw out bearing, disk, and pressure plate)
Exedy oem flywheel replacement (includes pilot bearing)
Trans side lower torque mount (rubber insulator)
Drivers side lower torque mount (rubber insulator)
Rear engine mount (mounting rubber)

Misc being replaced:

oem mainshaft trans bearing (it's going to go out eventually)
sk2 dual bend short shifter & ****
ES poly shifter bushings

Question:
Is the oem rear engine mount the same on automatics as it is manuals?

Both online honda parts sites I use list as only having the automatic rear mount:

Part # 8 Majestic Honda

and
Part #8 Honda Part Unlimited

Also, assuming that install is 100% correct, Is there anything else that should be replaced or looked at to eliminate my horrible clutch chatter?

Threads with pics get more clicks, and this is the only one I have of my dd (ok, it's the only car I have )

94EG8

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stevieteg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Question:
Is the oem rear engine mount the same on automatics as it is manuals</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes. I've used the automatic mount, and the automatic T bracket on 5 speed D-series swaps before, no difference.

sEa lOS gRill

Chatter is usually caused from "hot spots" on the flywheel or pressure plate friction face. That will cause the flywheel to wrap and cause the uneven contact with the clutch friction disc. That makes the disc skip around when feathering the clutch.

High performance clutches also chatter/squeal depending on friction material (metallic/ceramic and non-sprung discs) and if they are multi disc clutches.

But your replacing basically everything thats in the system so I don't think you'll have any problem with your new set up just make sure to torque the pressure plate evenly and give the new clutch plenty of brake in time. Good luck.

stevieteg

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94EG8 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Yes. I've used the automatic mount, and the automatic T bracket on 5 speed D-series swaps before, no difference.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Good to know. Thanks!

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sEa lOS gRill &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Chatter is usually caused from "hot spots" on the flywheel or pressure plate friction face. That will cause the flywheel to wrap and cause the uneven contact with the clutch friction disc. That makes the disc skip around when feathering the clutch.

But your replacing basically everything thats in the system so I don't think you'll have any problem with your new set up just make sure to torque the pressure plate evenly and give the new clutch plenty of brake in time. Good luck. </TD></TR></TABLE>


Yeah, that's what I think is happening and by default its ruined my motor mounts which makes everything x20 worse. Thanks.

obuhmyuh

i bought the ES bushing kit and a prothane kit as well for my big topside mounts

stevieteg

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by obuhmyuh &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i bought the ES bushing kit and a prothane kit as well for my big topside mounts</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, they make my car rattle more than I can handle. I'm either going to break my hand or my dashboard because I get so frustrated when **** rattles in my car, particularly when its cold outside. Poly inserts were a temporary fix for me. I need to fix the source of the problem i.e. the clutch/flywheel. I kept the engine stock on this car so I could retain a smooth, oem feel and not have to deal with driving a pos rattle trap 1993 civic.

Jonathan_ED3

Clutch chattering isn't too hard to modulate (and avoid) with slight adjustment to your engagement method.

My car has 250K on the stock clutch, and it chatters like crazy out of 1st gear and ESPECIALLY on cold mornings.

But I noticed if I modulate the clutch differently than I normally would, it completely avoids the chattering issue all together.

BTW - what made you think stiff bushings would HELP with chattering? If anything it amplifies the problem by transferring all that vibration to your interior bro! I bet it feels like your dashboard is going to fall off!

IMO, you're going overkill to solve a simple clutch chattering issue. A lot of times you can burn the very surface layer of the clutch off and be good to go chatter free for thousands of more miles. Just slip the clutch really heavily in and out of first gear for several minutes. Or park it up against a wall and start slipping the clutch.

white_r!ce

ebrake will work better than a wall for your bumper

how are your axles? excessive play in the joints will allow more clutch chatter.

stevieteg

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jonathan_ED3 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Clutch chattering isn't too hard to modulate (and avoid) with slight adjustment to your engagement method.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I completely understand that and agree with you, but I think you are seriously underestimating the amount of violent chatter that is going on here. Obvisouly, I can't show you over the internet but it's x23 worse than ANY other car I've driven that has clutch chatter. It's so bad that I NEED to spend $400 and my time to fix it or the car is getting sold.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">BTW - what made you think stiff bushings would HELP with chattering? If anything it amplifies the problem by transferring all that vibration to your interior bro! I bet it feels like your dashboard is going to fall off! </TD></TR></TABLE>

Sorry, I should have explained that better. I didn't think that it would solve the chattering, but my mounts are completely shot to the point where the bolts that hold the header to the cat snapped because the engine was rocking so badly

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">IMO, you're going overkill to solve a simple clutch chattering issue. A lot of times you can burn the very surface layer of the clutch off and be good to go chatter free for thousands of more miles. Just slip the clutch really heavily in and out of first gear for several minutes. Or park it up against a wall and start slipping the clutch. </TD></TR></TABLE>


That's actually not a bad idea. I really think that it's past the point of being saved but it's worth a shot.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by white_r!ce &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ebrake will work better than a wall for your bumper

how are your axles? excessive play in the joints will allow more clutch chatter.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Axles are good to my knowledge. No ripped boots or clicking.

I'll definitely try the ebrake method first


If this chatter problem doesn't get fixed I'm going to need to get rid of the car. It is seriously that bad.

Jonathan_ED3

If you want a smooth car - you positively MUST get rid of those poly mount inserts.

There's a guy on ebay that sells mount kits to replace all of your OEM mounts - great prices. I have used his mount kits on 3 of my cars now. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...36967

Take out the poly mounts, install the Exedy clutch you mentioned in the first post, get the flywheel resurfaced (critical for a *proper* clutch job - will run you $50-60) and make sure you break the new setup in properly. You will have a smooth car for another 200k miles! There's no reason for you to get rid of such a nice car! And an Si at that! Those cars are getting so hard to find, and looks like you have a very nice example of one!

stevieteg

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jonathan_ED3 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you want a smooth car - you positively MUST get rid of those poly mount inserts.

There's a guy on ebay that sells mount kits to replace all of your OEM mounts - great prices. I have used his mount kits on 3 of my cars now. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...36967

Take out the poly mounts, install the Exedy clutch you mentioned in the first post, get the flywheel resurfaced (critical for a *proper* clutch job - will run you $50-60) and make sure you break the new setup in properly. You will have a smooth car for another 200k miles! There's no reason for you to get rid of such a nice car! And an Si at that! Those cars are getting so hard to find, and looks like you have a very nice example of one! </TD></TR></TABLE>


haha, that is half the reason I'm doing all this work, to get rid of those stupid poly inserts I have right now. I don't understand why anyone would willing put these on their car.

I'm going with the Exedy oem replacement flywheel because it only costs $70 and I don't need to wait for a machine shop.

Thanks for the link. do you think those mounts are better, same, or worse quality than oem? I think I'm still going to buy 3 oem honda mounts (2 torque and 1 rear), which comes to about $120. I don't think I need the two upper mounts, they seem to be in pretty good shape.

I don't want to get rid of the car, I'd never find another stock BLACK Si in this condition in the midwest. I just need to solve this chatter/poly mount issue and I'll be good to go. I just want to make sure that I have everything I need so I can do everything correct the first time and not have to deal with this anymore.

Thanks!

Jonathan_ED3

Honestly, if I were you I would either get the stock flywheel resurfaced, or take the Exedy flywheel and have it double checked at a machine shop. Most shops can resurface your flywheel in about an hour.

90% of "new" flywheels (and brake rotors for that matter) are not in spec. The reason for this is because retailers do not store them properly - they stand them on edge, not flat like they should be. This is being **** - but I'm just suggesting the "do it right" method. An hour wait time won't kill you.

The mounts are as good as OEM. Certainly good as any aftermarket mounts you can buy. IMO, if you're going to replace any of the mounts might as well do all of them; you can get the full set for the cost of 3 "Honda" mounts.

stevieteg

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jonathan_ED3 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Honestly, if I were you I would either get the stock flywheel resurfaced, or take the Exedy flywheel and have it double checked at a machine shop. Most shops can resurface your flywheel in about an hour.

90% of "new" flywheels (and brake rotors for that matter) are not in spec. The reason for this is because retailers do not store them properly - they stand them on edge, not flat like they should be. This is being **** - but I'm just suggesting the "do it right" method. An hour wait time won't kill you.

The mounts are as good as OEM. Certainly good as any aftermarket mounts you can buy. IMO, if you're going to replace any of the mounts might as well do all of them; you can get the full set for the cost of 3 "Honda" mounts. </TD></TR></TABLE>


Hmmm... I'll have to think about the flywheel now. I have heard that theory before.

How long have you been running those ebay mounts? Your right, I might as well just replace them all. Has anyone else ever used those mounts before?

Jonathan_ED3

I put a set on one of my cars in '01 - now my friend owns it [nearly 100K on the mounts], and the mounts are still in great shape. The mounts are beefy.

He does have a lifetime warranty on the mounts - I haven't had to mess with a warranty, but check out his feedback score. He is a great ebayer.

I can see the notion of going "OEM" on certain items - but a piece of OEM rubber isn't something I'd necessarily strive for - just my $.02.

instrument

isn't this a bit of overkill for clutch chatter?

isn't resurfacing the flywheel enough? or replacing it?

i've never seen a case of clutch chatter that requires this level of replacement.

most people i've had complain about clutch chatter all have bought their car used, and at some point the previous owner had removed the flywheel cover, a simple resurface/replacement has always ended the chatter.

oil and **** gets on the flywheel without the cover..this just seems a bit extreme.

Jonathan_ED3

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by instrument &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">isn't this a bit of overkill for clutch chatter?

isn't resurfacing the flywheel enough? or replacing it?

i've never seen a case of clutch chatter that requires this level of replacement.

most people i've had complain about clutch chatter all have bought their car used, and at some point the previous owner had removed the flywheel cover, a simple resurface/replacement has always ended the chatter.

oil and **** gets on the flywheel without the cover..this just seems a bit extreme.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

What's overkill? What exactly is extreme about what he's going to do?

Getting a new clutch and resurfacing the flywheel is SOP for a clutch job. You are agreeing with us on that, no?

Mounts - that's the OP's prerogative. At a little over a hundred bucks, and considering the transmission will already be pulled, what's so extreme?

stevieteg

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by instrument &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">isn't this a bit of overkill for clutch chatter?

isn't resurfacing the flywheel enough? or replacing it?

i've never seen a case of clutch chatter that requires this level of replacement.

most people i've had complain about clutch chatter all have bought their car used, and at some point the previous owner had removed the flywheel cover, a simple resurface/replacement has always ended the chatter.
oil and **** gets on the flywheel without the cover..this just seems a bit extreme.

</TD></TR></TABLE>


I don't think it's extreme, just correct and proper imo. I'm not going to go through the trouble of taking the flywheel off to get it resurfaced and then proceed to put the old clutch back on. That would be stupid. The Exedy oem replacement clutch runs about $120, which imo is definitely worth not having to take everything back apart because the disc was slightly warped or the fingers on the pressure plate were slightly bent. The flywheel cover is on. This is not your typical eg civic that's missing a bunch of bolts and ****, the drive train is 100% oem from the factory.

Three of the engine mounts are completely shot. The need to be replaced regardless.

The mainshaft bearing is a very common thing that gets replaced with high mileage honda's. It's not that bad yet, but I can already hear it starting to go when I take my foot off the clutch while idling in neutral. Again, I'm not going to have the trans off, put it back on, and then have to take it off again in 40k because the bearing is completely destroyed.

The short shifter is obviously not necessary, but I can't think of a better time to do it.

I've done enough work on cars to know to do it right the first time. I've skipped out on new parts before and regretted in the long run.