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so I have had this EG all summer. Was broughtin for a quick tune but had a kaundry list of problems which we started to correct..things like the turbo oil feed was brittle and exploded, the throttlevody had a crap parts store TPS, crap map sensor, hole in throttle body near plug (not sure if it was leaking but still), bled brakes, bled clutch, did shifter bushings, spark plugs, aded a boost control solenoid and replumbed the gate. Rebuilt a new VTEC ecu for him since all the outputs were fried from someone failing on trying to hook up vtec to a non vtec ecu. And probably a crap load more stuff I forget.
once I was comfortable the car should have been in a tunable state, we went for a tune.
afr's looked good, timing wasn't being touched yet (i did discover later the cam was advanced 8° with a cam gear but I did set the timing correctly to 16°)
did a few baby pulls.. hit boost cut pretty easy without really any solenoid duty, so was doing gentle pulls to not hit boost cut at first to adjust the solenoid and get thst in check.
starts smoking really badly after idling for a minute after the last pull which also looked like it went lean near the top. Bye bye headgasket!
So, we inspect..why did we lean at all? Found a fake walbro or knockoff oem not sure which in the tank. I was told it had a walbro. I should have checked with everything else on the car. Plus I am not sure the fuel pump was ever changed.
Added a aeromotive 340lph fuel pump and a new fuel filter, dumped in some 94 octane while we were at it.
then, we popped the head off and found a graphite head gasket. My first thought was WHAT THE ****?! this motor was built with citaras, polished crank, hbeam rods, cams and head work..why the heck graphite? I havent even ever seen a graphite head gasket for a Honda D or B ?? Might be OK for your grannies civic, non vtec auto not boosted and babied but a turbo? I have never seen anyone not recommend MLS especially OEM for Honda at least upto more power than this car will ever see.
went to my good friends at Honda who hooked us up with an oem mls head gasket. Ckeaned the surfaces as best we could, cleaned the holes for the studs the best we could, used arp lube (already had ARP studs but was assembled with engine oil not arp lube before)..got all new washers for the studs (i misplaced em lol) and torqued it down to about 69.
did a compression test, looks grest. This is a low compression motor but the numbers were still higher than I expected. 165 170 174 185 ish not the best but before it was like 140 142 137 120 lol..like before we blew the graphite crap.
anyway. Buttoned her up. Have not touched anything else since she was last running. Nothing touched with wires or ecu or anything and I am an automotive electrical tech by trade..I haven't tested everything I could test but I am hoping for some direction instead of running endless tests.
I tried with the ECU we prepped for him and the chip that was contained the map we were running last time it ran. I also tried with my personal ecu and my demon with the same map and also a brand new map.
all sensors in datalog are reading fine. TPS in range and responding, map in range and responding, rpm comes back while cranking somtach should be working.
i took a spark plug lead out and put a spare plug on it and cranked and saw no sparkies. I then thought maybe dizzy. Took it apart and tested components, they check out. Even tried a diff dizzy, no spark still it seems.
So is it cranking but not starting? Didn't see you state that, just saw that it wasn't firing.
There should be power going to the distributor. Whats the spec you got when you tested the igniter and icm? Whats mechanical timing? Distributor 180 out?
So is it cranking but not starting? Didn't see you state that, just saw that it wasn't firing.
There should be power going to the distributor. Whats the spec you got when you tested the igniter and icm? Whats mechanical timing? Distributor 180 out?
Yes, I put a spare plug on a plug wire and I am seeing no sparkyspark. I tested and there is power going to dizzy.
The spec I tested with was from the FSM, everything checked within range. Got voltage where I was supposed to when I was supposed to and the right resistances where I would expect.
I haven't set mechanical timing yet as I need it to start and idle to lock the timing with the laptop and adjust it to match 16 w/ a light. The dizzy is set in the middle of the range and the cam gear was at +8 I backed it off to +2.5 or so.
Dizzy is definitely not 180 out, it wont even fit like that, I tried to stuff it in 180 off just in case but no go, like it should be.
T-stat ground appears fine and was not touched since the car last ran. Generally, if any grounds are having issues I can't even connect for datalogging anyway let alone get proper sensor readings everywhere.
She just cranks and cranks..not even a slight catch at all..I can feel pressure in the return line and hear it draining back into the tank (the rear interior is deleted)
Like I said, I even tried a known good distributor..was from a non-vtec so it wouldn't actually bolt in, but, plugging it in and cranking I should see spark and I didn't either...
There's a critical wire connected to the igniter unit. It runs to the ECU. Compare voltage on the wire at the igniter unit in the distributor and at the ECU connector.
If you crank the engine with the hood ECU fuse and distributor cap removed, does the rotor spin?
Last edited by muellersfan; 11-09-2018 at 06:57 PM.
Dizzy is definitely not 180 out, it wont even fit like that, I tried to stuff it in 180 off just in case but no go, like it should be.
If you disassemble the distributor and reinstall the distributor end gear that engages the camshaft 180-degrees out of phase, the distributor will fit but spark timing will be off. However, this would not cause a no-spark condition like you are having.
There's a critical wire connected to the igniter unit. It runs to the ECU. Compare voltage on the wire at the igniter unit in the distributor and at the ECU connector.
If you crank the engine with the hood ECU fuse and distributor cap removed, does the rotor spin?
If you disassemble the distributor and reinstall the distributor end gear that engages the camshaft 180-degrees out of phase, the distributor will fit but spark timing will be off. However, this would not cause a no-spark condition like you are having.
ya if i rebuikt it wrong maybe but it never even got opened.. just popped off, stayed in the bay while installing new hg, popped back on
thats the wierd part, i didnt touch much since it last ran. And datalog looks good too.
List all colors of wires attached to your igniter unit.
Or post a picture.
Here are the stock Civic wires (Wht wire can also be Yel/Grn):
Does the fuel pump prime? Does the fuel pump prime? Does the fuel pump prime? Does the fuel pump prime? Does the fuel pump prime? Does the fuel pump prime?
.
Last edited by muellersfan; 11-09-2018 at 07:43 PM.
Yes. The fuel pump primes, like I said I do get pressure in the return hose as well.
Again, I ran the tests on the igniter as per FSM and it passed. Also known good dizzy swapped in and still no sparky visible with a plug hanging offa wire.
Take the cap off and check for sparks at the coil to a grounded test wire. If you have strong sparks at the coil but not at the plugs, investigate the cap and rotor for cracks, also if the rotor screw is not in place the rotor will be out of sync and not pointed at a plug terminal when the spark fires.
I don't know how chipped ECUs work but if there is a way to measure real time rpm see if it shows 200 or so while cranking. You could also use a noid light to see if the ECU is firing the injectors. If the ECU is firing the injectors it should also be firing sparks.
You're really going to make me pull out my FSM to list all the tests and that they were within what the manual specifies?
If you need help solving a tech problem and create a thread, post all tech data you have gathered prior to making the thread.
The service manual says check the Yel/Grn wire. So, how EXACTLY did you test it and what were the results?
In an unbelievable number of tech threads, an OP says I tested so and so and it was fine without any details. 50 posts later, oh wait, I was mistaken, so and so was bad.
You'll benefit by not being too lazy to post actual test results. How hard could it be if you actually did the tests?
Last edited by muellersfan; 11-10-2018 at 06:04 PM.
Its true. Just post your results that you got after the test. You're asking internet folk to help but you're not giving much info to get help. It actually sounds like you just want to throw parts at it...
Sorry to piggyback on your thread but Im having a very similar issue. Sadly i dont have the means to have professional testing. But i can say what i found with my test light. I get power to the coil on both the positive and negative with the key on (test light on ground only). Also no pulsing when cranking it @ the coil or injectors (but still have fuel on the plugs and good fuel pressure). Took the coil out and autozone tested it with a multimeter and came out to 1ohm on primary and 12k on secondary wich was within the limits on the datasheet they pulled up. Idk what to do with it at this point, any help is appreciated.
You're really going to make me pull out my FSM to list all the tests and that they were within what the manual specifies?
..
See attached. I added results of tests.
Originally Posted by muellersfan
If you need help solving a tech problem and create a thread, post all tech data you have gathered prior to making the thread.
The service manual says check the Yel/Grn wire. So, how EXACTLY did you test it and what were the results?
In an unbelievable number of tech threads, an OP says I tested so and so and it was fine without any details. 50 posts later, oh wait, I was mistaken, so and so was bad.
You'll benefit by not being too lazy to post actual test results. How hard could it be if you actually did the tests?
Originally Posted by muellersfan
If you need help solving a tech problem and create a thread, post all tech data you have gathered prior to making the thread.
The service manual says check the Yel/Grn wire. So, how EXACTLY did you test it and what were the results?
In an unbelievable number of tech threads, an OP says I tested so and so and it was fine without any details. 50 posts later, oh wait, I was mistaken, so and so was bad.
You'll benefit by not being too lazy to post actual test results. How hard could it be if you actually did the tests?
I did post the results - even screenshotted and wrote on the guide - you can see that my #s were within spec where they apply. The rest test for battery voltage or continuity, and those all PASS.
When I said that the results were in spec, that was me sharing the results. Perhaps other posters aren't capable of testing properly, I do wiring for a living.
When I said it checked out, it was the equivalent of me saying:
1. The primary winding was between 0.6 and 0.8 ohms.
2. The secondary winding was between 13.2k and 19.8k
3. Battery voltage @ blk/yel
4. Battery voltage @ wht/blu
5. Continuity between yel/grn at ignitor and ECU (a22 I believe, while ffs technet shows red/green for a21 and a22, other places don't which is a shame as its mostly accurate for most cars).
6. Continuity between blu at tach to ignitor.
7. Replaced whole dizzy assembly with known working to test for spark, nothing.
I am not trying to be difficult or ambiguous, I thought referencing the guide and the passes should have communicated what I was trying.
Its true. Just post your results that you got after the test. You're asking internet folk to help but you're not giving much info to get help. It actually sounds like you just want to throw parts at it...
How so? when did I say I just wanted to throw parts at it? I couldn't tell you a single part to throw at it that might fix the problem except a whole new car, LOL
as I said, I am not trying to be ambiguous or difficult - I just didn't think that I had to write out a pass/fail for each result when the manual defines a fail and none were present. I come from a software development background. The guide is basically IF THIS DO THAT ELSE DO THIS so I figured communicating all my IFs were true would have been enough.
Sorry to piggyback on your thread but Im having a very similar issue. Sadly i dont have the means to have professional testing. But i can say what i found with my test light. I get power to the coil on both the positive and negative with the key on (test light on ground only). Also no pulsing when cranking it @ the coil or injectors (but still have fuel on the plugs and good fuel pressure). Took the coil out and autozone tested it with a multimeter and came out to 1ohm on primary and 12k on secondary wich was within the limits on the datasheet they pulled up. Idk what to do with it at this point, any help is appreciated.
Be careful with a test light versus a multimeter for some tests as it can pull more current than a multimeter. A $20 multimeter is enough for most automotive stuff.
in your situation, i would test a known good ECU next
I had a really old needle style multimeter that i replaced while i was at autozone today with a $20 digital one. Not sure exactly where to start with it. And it doesnt make sense that the ecu would malfunction with the battery disconnected while i rebuilt the block.. I just started this project on wed. I had to drop the trans. I feel like im just missing something small and stupid im gonna kik myself in the **** for when i figure it out... Ground wire maybe?
I had a really old needle style multimeter that i replaced while i was at autozone today with a $20 digital one. Not sure exactly where to start with it. And it doesnt make sense that the ecu would malfunction with the battery disconnected while i rebuilt the block.. I just started this project on wed. I had to drop the trans. I feel like im just missing something small and stupid im gonna kik myself in the **** for when i figure it out... Ground wire maybe?
1. The primary winding was between 0.6 and 0.8 ohms.
Did you subtract the internal resistance of the your multimeter from the raw reading of the primary winding? Many people miss this crucial step. However, the fact that you swapped in a known good distributor suggests the coil may be fine.
5. Continuity between yel/grn at ignitor and ECU (a22 I believe, while ffs technet shows red/green for a21 and a22, other places don't which is a shame as its mostly accurate for most cars).
You missed a key wire test here for a short to ground. You can do the Ohm test or measure voltage to body ground at unplugged ECU connector A pins A21 & A22.
I just didn't think that I had to write out a pass/fail for each result when the manual defines a fail and none were present.
In many cases, this^ is true, but not always. The manual doesn't spell out every test detail and outcome because it is written for automotive techs trained to read between the lines. Most people on car forums are not automotive techs, and even automotive techs can be sloppy or just plain bad at what they do.
When you create an tech thread, present all test details and test results. This will expedite the process of finding the solution(s).
Sorry to piggyback on your thread but Im having a very similar issue. Sadly i dont have the means to have professional testing. But i can say what i found with my test light. I get power to the coil on both the positive and negative with the key on (test light on ground only). Also no pulsing when cranking it @ the coil or injectors (but still have fuel on the plugs and good fuel pressure). Took the coil out and autozone tested it with a multimeter and came out to 1ohm on primary and 12k on secondary wich was within the limits on the datasheet they pulled up. Idk what to do with it at this point, any help is appreciated.
You probably do NOT have a ground wire problem given that the fuel pump primes/runs.
Check for CEL codes. If none, crank the engine for 30 seconds to see if you set a CEL code for one of the three distributor sensors (CRANK, TDC, CYL). You can also Ohm test the CRANK, TDC, and CYL circuits and sensors.
11-09-2018, 03:15 PM
Please HELP..I am stumped..! No Start!
