malaclypse

After reading Spade's masterful D-series thread (thanks Spade!) I've come up with some questions, but I want to start a new thread rather than hijack Spade's.
First off, I'll set some parameters.
1) My priority: fun factor. I define this as maximum handling with reasonable acceleration, top speed not important. In other words, I'd rather this not turn into a "just swap!" thread. I know I can swap, but that's not really my point.
2) Amount I'm willing to spend: About $3k-$4k including labor. I don't have a garage, so I'm going to have to pay for work to be done.
3) Everything must be CA smog legal.
4) Work already done: Eibach Pro-kit, KYB AGX dampers, 16" wheels with 205-40 Kumho Ecsta 712's.
5) I'm obviously a newbie, so if you can take the time to completely explain things, I would really appreciate it.
OK, on to the questions:
As Spade says, one of the first things a Z1 owner should do is change out the transmission. OK, so an SI or EX transmission. At the same time as doing this, I'd like to get an LSD. Quaife lists their part number 60.309.160 as being for the B16 VTEC - is this the part I should get? Then, can I just drive to a transmission shop with both things in my hatch and say "Put this diff in this transmission and put it in this car"? Would I need any different parts (speed sensor?) Is pretty much any shop competent to do this, or does anyone have a shop in SoCal they would recommend? Also, since the transmission is going to be out of the car, I figure it makes sense to upgrade the clutch and maybe shave the flywheel as well. Any recommendations for a nice, streetable clutch that wouldn't be overkill? I'm thinking about Action, but the posts I've seen talk about them in the context of boosted motors.
OK, now here's where I'm going to really show my newbie-ness. What about putting an SOHC VTEC head on the D15 block, along with an EX or SI throttle body? Sort of a micro-me. Would it bolt up/work? I figure I would have to change the ECU since the fuel maps for the VX probably wouldn't suit. O2 sensor would probably also need to be changed (?) Anything else? Is this just stupid? In Spade's "passing smog" thread, one person brought up replacement heads not being CARB legal, but it wasn't really answered. Are they in fact passable? I assume that the answer would also apply to CR-VTEC or LS VTEC swaps...Anyone?
The reason I started thinking about this was because I'm reluctant to put an intake on the engine since the throttle body is so small. Then I started thinking about changing the throttle body, then I started thinking about the head. Hmm.
Anyway, sorry for the long post. Any suggestions appreciated!



[Modified by malaclypse, 12:33 PM 1/29/2003]

sohc_boy

quaife lsd for the b16 will not work with your d-series. and yeah u can bolt a vtec head onto your d15 do a search for mini-me.

malaclypse

Hi - thanks for your reply.
But I'm not sure I understand. I thought a mini-me was a D16 with a VTEC head. So what I'm looking for is confirmation that it will bolt to a D15 block, which I didn't find in any of the mini-me threads I saw (other than one guy who said that it wouldn't be better than a D16Z6, which isn't really my question). Also, I saw somewhere somebody (sorry can't be more specific) said that the D15Z1 block was actually different than other D15 blocks. Can't see why that would be the case, but I did see it.
Also, since (according to Spade's thread) the SI transmission will bolt to the D15Z1, wouldn't the Quaife LSD for that transmission be the one to use if I'm doing the transmission swap? If not, which other one would be appropriate? The other Honda transmissions listed on the Quaife applications page are either EF Civics or Acuras.
Anyway, thanks again for your reply.

Patrick

Ok, first off the d16z6 head WILL work on your block; I know cause I did it myself. Yes you want the si tranny, and the d16 quife will work. Here is a pick right after I finished my head swap.



I liked the setup alot but soon after I did it I bent the valves.

malaclypse

Awesome, real-world experience. Thanks!
Now some specific questions for you if you don't mind. What TB did you use, and what ECU?
How did you bend your valves? Was there something about the head install I should be aware of?

IS3Fifty

why?!?!?!?!

9KRacer

Why would you want to put a VTEC head on a car that already has a VTEC head? The Z1 and Z6 are almost the same head.. TB size might be different.

malaclypse

A couple of reasons:
I like the 1.5.
I have a philosophical objection to the "more displacement is always better" argument.
I'm going to be autocrossing and more power isn't necessarily a good thing.
I like the 1.5.
I want to do more with less.
Did I mention I like the 1.5?

piscorpio

? This statement confuses me, the VTEC head on a z1 is not the same as a z6 is it? The z1 is a VTEC-E I thought? As far as TB, at a glance I would say it is definitely smaller on the z1 (intake tube is much smaller), but I never actually measured the two. Can you or someone else explain further just how similar the two heads are?

RR98DX

um no. one is vtec-e and the other is vtec. vtec-e doesn't allow for lift and duration changes on all 8 intake valves like reg vtec does. unlike the HX vtec-e head, the Z1 has a smaller cam, and smaller valves.

the Z6 not only has larger valves and a larger cam, but he will have a wide choice of upgrade cams available that he wouldn't have if he stuck with the Z1.

RR98DX

if i where you, i'd go with a 96-00 EX (Y8) head. right off the bat you will get the Y8 manifold and mucho compression over the Z6.

malaclypse

Z1 and Z6 are very different. Z1 is VTEC-E, which disables one valve below a certain RPM level. Z6 is "real" VTEC, which has two separate cam profiles, one mild, one wild, that switch at a higher rpm level.

TB size is also very different. I put my VX next to an SI of the same year and mine was noticeably smaller, small enough that I'm not sure a CAI would fit without some sort of step-down adapter (that would probably remove any benefit of the CAI!)

nijia555

for that price, i hate to say it try to get a whole d16z block and the d series vti transmission with stock lsd. that should fall well below the 4k price tag that you have.

malaclypse

Yes, the Y8 head is an option as well, as long as (I'm a Newbie!) it actually bolts up - you're saying it would, right? Also, I assume you're talking about the intake manifold, and that's something I hadn't thought about. With either head, would the intake also have to be changed? Not a problem if so, I just want to be sure of what I need to buy.
Thanks!

malaclypse

Well, I mean I could spend 3-4K, but I'd like to spend less if possible .

OK, and here's my core question, since even I have sort of gotten distracted from the parameters I originally set. How much impact would any of this have on my "fun factor"? Meaning - I know the LSD and SI transmission are key for autocrossing and the type of driving I'll be doing. That's probably about $2100 total including labor. Would the VTEC head add much "fun", and at what cost? Alternatively, has anyone put a CAI on a stock VX, and if so, how much "fun" did it add?

piscorpio

Wow, for a second I thought everything I had learned was wrong, thanks for confirming the whole z6, z1 thing guys.

Colton Grundy

http://asia.vtec.net/article/d15b/

Look at that you could come across it for around $300-700 and just see if one of you’re friends will let you use there garage.

malaclypse

?[QUOTE]http://asia.vtec.net/article/d15b/
That article is what got me started thinking about all this!
Unfortunately, any combo of D15 VTEC parts from Asia is unlikely to be CARB-legal...unless someone has info to the contrary?

Patrick

Ok, the smog tech isnt going to know the difference between the two heads, they almost missed my swap (gsr) so dont worry about that. I got my vtec head for about $300 and a p28 will run about $200 and some other little parts and gaskets and your set. So for $600 you could have a vtec head on your car and running. SOHC are cheap as hell to build, with the money you have left over you could get a turbo and you would be set, faster than most b series swaps.

civicmatt

If you are going to be autoxing, get yourself some tires. Then learn to drive what you have. Then figure what class you want to race in. If you don't care what class you are in, run out as fast as you can and get an ex/si tranny! The amount of power you seek is easy to extract from your motor. Also, find a garage and try to do it yourself. You'll learn a lot. good luck.

tysf

hmm ex/si trans - should be easy to find for $150-200
quaife - say $1000 im pretty sure they can be found for less though. do the labour yourself, good chance to learn

d16z6 head - again probably like $150-200... z6 head on a z1 is basically the jdm d15b vtec rated at 130ps. id say its worth it. get the z6 manifold and throttle body with it, shouldn't be more than $50-75
then all you'll need is a p28 ecu, a new o2 and possibly some minor rewiring


with i/h/e i think it'd be a pretty fun setup. if i were you i'd skip the quaife for now. its the majority of the cost you're looking at. do the little things first and see how you like it. before you drop $1k on an lsd... it wont be that hard to drop the trans later on and possibly throw in a lightened flywheel and a nice clutch while you're in there.

Patrick

I would definetly go for the clutch while you had the tranny out.

malaclypse

Man I love this forum - this is all really good info. Thanks guys!
OK, here's the reason I'm thinking about not skipping the LSD for right now: in my practice sessions, one thing that has really limited me at the track has been my starts and my exit speed from corners. Both of these would be helped by shorter gearing, and exit speed from corners would be helped by the LSD. And, since I'm already going to change the tranny, I might as well put in an LSD at the same time, rather than doing it twice (or more precisely, paying to have it done twice; for you guys who said get some friend to let me use their garage - I wish I could! None of us luzerz have garages!) And, of course, since the tranny will be out, makes sense to do the clutch, and maybe even shave that flywheel.
So it might be the head swap that gets skipped this time around, since none of the other changes depend upon it. But I like what I'm hearing from you guys about its possibilities. By the way, was I correct in my understanding that a mini-me is a 1.6 liter? Or can it apply to any SOHC engine with a VTEC head swap? Just trying to climb out of my newbie pit.
Thanks everybody for the great info!

Moose

I currently Race (Solo 1and Solo 2) a 93 Si hatch (D16Z6) ,and this is what I have found works, and is cost-effective for me ...

Keep in mind you have to build your car based on the rule book and what class you want to run in ... this will be the largest factor in what you do to your car ....

-Si/Ex Trannies Rock .... the gearing really helps the low Torque D-series spin up.

-LSD ROCKS !!!!! for Autocross ... it REALLY helps exit speeds and getting down what ever power you might have ... the Quaife is really nice ... but if you add the cost of the Quaife (~$700) + a Used Si tranny ($200) + the Labour to install it (~$200) so you are out $1100 ... how-ever there is a low-cost option .... on SOME JDM VTi's there was a LSD D-series tranny .... they are rare ..but can be had for arround $500 ... they have the same gearing as the USDM Si/EX But with a LSD... so check out your local JDM importers ....

The D15Z1 shares the same bottom-end as all OBD-1 D15's .... the head as mentioned is a Vtec version made for fuel-economy NOT performance ..how-ever the the D16Z6 head and the D16Y8 head bolts on with no issues ... do a search for "mini-me" to get more in-depth information on what exactely is involved. This combo will make D16Z6 levels of power ... However there is another option ... the JDM D15B SOHC Vtec motor found in the JDM Civic VTi .... this is the same motor as a Mini-me ..A D15 bottom end with a Z6 head (trust me the casting marks do not lie) ... so for $400-500 you can buy a complete low-km pre-made mini-me that puts out around 130hp and 110 ft/lbs at the crank.

-Lightened fly-wheel ... one of the best low-buck mods I have done to my car ... It really helps acceleration in 1st and 2nd gear .. the most important gears in Solo-2

-Intake / Header / Exhaust ... dont spent to much money here .... try to find good deals (used) and ignore the JDM brand-names(no much $$ for not enough HP IMHO) .... they all make pretty much the same power anyways ... squat

I use the Zex 59300 Cam ... it works prety well ..making good power when on the Vtec Cam

Integra Throttle bodies bolt-on .... 4mm bigger than stock (B18B, B18C1) larger with ITR or Prelude... they are cheap ..but they only make power if you have the bolt-ons that require the extra flow the TB provides.

Prothane Urethane engine mounts really help reduce engine rock and wheel hop ..... it helps put down the power ... you DO get more vibration in the car but it is worth it to me ... install them it when you pull the Tranny .. the tranny mount is a bitch when you do it with the tranny in the car. ....

Suspension ... Ist thing .... Tires .... something wide and sticky on the widest rims you can get ... 225-50-15's will fit on 15x7's with a 38 offset ... IF you roll the fender lips and / or run some good negative camber

2nd thing ... Linear Rate springs and adjustable shocks !!!!!
-Ground-Control sleeves with Eibach ERS springs will do wonders to the predictability and control of the car Koni Yellows are the best option in reasonably priced ..good quality adjustable shocks The next level in suspension is full coil-overs from Tein, JIC, etc .... but you will pay a premium over a GC/KOni combo ... It is worth it ..but for the Newbi I would start with Koni/GC

Suspension .... maximise the grip of the tires and dial in some negative camber .... I run -3 degree's up front and -2 degree's out back to get even contact and wear

That is all I can think of off the top of my head

Cheers

Moose




[Modified by Moose, 2:42 AM 1/30/2003]

SOHCwarrior

d16z6 tranny and head are the best upgrades
like said above smog tech will have no idea

the d15z1 does NOT share the same bottom end as other d15's the rods and pistons are different

but dseries.org has all your answers