hB eVo

First of all I respect the decisions that people make on their cars. I'm in the auto business and people do all sorts of things to their rides. Whatever they come up with I respect. It's in their view of how they see their car. So everyone out there rice ok laugh, its not your taste. Do you think a spoon civic is in the top of the mind of LJ Garcia? Do what you like.

For all of those people who can't afford the Type R's or Si's or GSR's for that matter and who drive a civic with the stock engine, do your research. You do not have to swap engines to be fast!!! Even though its always great to do. But learn your car first, learn how it works, learn how power is made, where its lost or gained etc.

The perfect sleeper is a stock looking car with usually a common swap. I drive an ek same stock engine as I first bought it, since then Si's could not keep up, GSR's almost even, and a type r it would not lose me much. Do your research. My car does not run on nos, turbo or supercharged. Its 100% NA. I have surprised some costumers already.

You do not need mad cash? What you need is logic and research and to be patient.
So all you sohc civic owners it can be done. Your car can be fast while you save for that engine. Once you understand the concepts reapply the same things to that bigger engine and see what happens...



[Modified by hB eVo, 10:00 AM 2/20/2002]

RR98DX

complete 98 D16Y7 with 23,000 miles for sale: $100 pick up only

hB eVo

bought a new engine already...bigger things now.

B18C-EJ1

Huh? I think most people will agree that when you're being laughed at by other people, it's becuase your car looks just downright NASTY with RICE parts. If it's done tastefully, then you might just get a snicker, not a full blown fall-down-funny laugh.

No one said SOHC's where slow, but when compared with DOHC engines, the DOHC will always come out on top. Assuming your spending $ for $ on each engine.

I have a hard time believing that your SOHC EK is beating GSR's and barley losing to ITR's. Are you telling them you're racing?? Or are you just racing Stock engines against your built SOHC? (BTW, It's spelled c-u-s-t-O-m-e-r-s, unless you're racing people that make costumes.)

This is true, you can build anything on a budget.

Think of it this way. All the $$ you spend on that SOHC to make it as fast as a DOHC you could have saved and been that much closer to your swap.

1.6el

OK. Good news since I own a 1.6 SOHC. Now, what mods have you done to make your car perform so well?

you2envious

inquiring minds want to know (((SOHC 1.6)))

ooostenb

yeah, what have u done. share the knowledge my brotha

mps9506

That is one problem though. You have to drop at least $2200 just to get a legite b16a enginge most of them time, even more for b18c. If you spend that same money building up a d engine you will most likely, if done correctly, beat hybrid civics running stock b series engines, for the most part.
I do agree you reach the limits of d series engines rather quickly compared to the b series engines, but not everyone needs 250 hp at the wheels in a daily driver.
The one thing I do lie about the DOHC engines is that they seem to run much smoother to me, esp. higher in the rev range. My little D series engine sounds like hell at 6500 rpm and up. While my friends gsr seems to sing whenit gets up past vtec.
But anyways, my point, if you count dollar for dollar including money invested into the engine, then I think you get more power sticking with the sohc engine. But I'm not bashing engine swaps by any means, I have a b16a block sitting in the garage ready for some rods and pistons and a head.

B18C-EJ1

So lets say you spend $300 on a Header, and $150 on a intake for your SOHC?

Well hell, that's $450 you could have saved on your swap.

And in real life you can go spend $450 on you SOHC, and the guy down the street will spend $450 on his GSR (Integra that is) and still smoke your SOHC.

So your arguement doesn't hold water very well.

tonyxcom

this whole thing is bs if he can't list mods and then back them up with numbers.

and it must not be all that if he himself STILL got a b-series.

fsp31

I'm still waiting for the grocery list of SOHC mods that allow comparisons to GSR's and such...

teknine

this is all great news and all but sell out some of the tips you speak of.

Spade

Since there hasn't been an answer here.

Integra trottle bodies,
EX intake manifolds,
Port and polish, (buy a spare and do it yourself http://www.theoldone.com read the article on p&p)
EX tranny with a LSD (even a POS phantom LSD will do wonders for the little SOHC).

Edit: And if you have a spare Head, mill the damn thing too.

Suspension is a key as well, maintaining speed while changing direction is a very very nice thing.



[Modified by Spade, 12:18 PM 2/20/2002]

l

thinking of it that way.... the sohc motor im planning to build will cost less then a DOHC VTEC swap and be faster then a mildly modded tuned DOHC VTEC swap

but yeah b18c EJ1 i know exactly how you feel.... but speed only costs alot when you dont know...
its like computers they were too expensive to have in homes because the techs didnt know how to make them cost efficient.... but as they grew wiser with comp tech they were able to produce them cheaper and smaller...

think the first computer was the size of a classroom and could probably calculate less then a new watch

vactor

here is the thing most people recommending a swap do not understand. the long block B16A, post 1995 (as to be legal in my 1995 civic) is usually $3200+ (and ~$4000+ for the GSR. add a tranny in a worst case scenario ($450). then at least another bill or 2 in the misc parts u need for the swap. that's freaking $3850 to put a B16A (BONE stock) into my 1995 civic. now, i can put one HELL of a suspension and turbo and electronics on my D series and kick the SHIIIIT out of the B16A swap. also, what if my total budget is only $2500 for example (which imho is a LOT of money no matter what), well, then a swap is out of the question, no matter when i save the $450. also, straight line speed (i.e. power) is not everything. you still need a good suspension, tires, brakes and the like. my car will EASILY beat ANY stock motorted B16A or B18C swapped car on both the autoX track and the race track (i.e. gingermann). so why would i spend a GRIP of $$$ for LESS performance??? makes no sense.

i agree however, that a smartly built D16 can do VERY well. i will test this myself, but given my autoX performance already, i know this is the case.

B18C-EJ1

Damm who's ripping you off? I got my GSR for $3k, and installed it myself. Came with EVERYTHING I needed to swap it.

Hell, if you do some research you can have a LS engine for under $2000 complete. And if you really do some research, you could build a LS engine from parts people are selling for under $1500.

So where's the arguement now?

OH, also, B16's can be bought for $750 (longblock and tranny). After paying for all the parts, you would have spent about $1700 for a complete swap.

B18C-EJ1

Um, If you car is also STOCK, then I doubt that very much, but if your car is built, then you have the unfair advantage.

Come down to Willow springs, and see if you can beat some of the guys there.

The bottom line is if you want to be fast, save the $$ that you would spend on a SOHC, and get yourself a swap.

vactor

well, i must say, here in the midwest, those prices you are quoting are simply not available. period. also, add shipping to the prices you quoted. and as far as install, i have NO place to do it, so i am resigned to paying for it. add $500 right there. and again, you forgot the one or 2 bills of miscelaneous parts too. in any case, if i put even the $2500, which wherver you are living (as opposed to me) is a B18 LS installed swap, again, all you have for the $2500 is a bit more power n' torque. for that, i got:
NSX front brakes
fastbrakes rear brakes,
brake pads
brake fluid
15/16" booster and 4040 prop valve
varous and sundry chassis braces,
ITR shocks, springs, and rear sway bar
Rota C8 wheels and pirelli P700z tires
D16Y8 cylinder head and intake manifold,
Del Sol driver's seat
oil pres, fuel pres and A/F gauges
AND a Quaife LSD installed.

so you tell me, which car will have better track performance given the same driver? hell, i'll even spot you an ITR swap ...

will will add a used 4-1 header, Zex cam and a hondata stage 2. i bet i wil have a MUCH better all around performer than ANYONE with a swap spending the same amount as i did.

THAT'S my argument. anyone see any flaws? let's keep this going ...

DaNish

So you're saying that if the integra owner down the street spends $500 on an Intake and Header and with $500 I purchase a Zex Kit and put it on my SOHC VTEC Civic that he'll smoke me? It's really not about how much money is put into SOHC's or DOHC's...it's about where the money is being put towards.

vactor

quote:
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So lets say you spend $300 on a Header, and $150 on a intake for your SOHC?
Well hell, that's $450 you could have saved on your swap.

And in real life you can go spend $450 on you SOHC, and the guy down the street will spend $450 on his GSR (Integra that is) and still smoke your SOHC.

So your arguement doesn't hold water very well.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
oh, and don't forget to add the (conservative) $3300 for the GSR swap (which is a price i have NEVER seen). so that's $3750 ... right?? man, see my list above...

tonyxcom

I think we all need to clarify what purpose this car is built for.

If we are talking drag...well, who cares, both platforms can be just as fast in a straight line, up to about 11's. Then the dohc can go farther then the sohc.

If we are talking track cars, sure you can spend that money in suspension/braking/handling. But forget about turbo or nos. Turbo honda track cars bite, and in most places and sanctions aren't even legal.

So if you look at strickly NA sohc or dohc its a toss up. Handling isn't nothing without hp to pull you down the straight. The only place you might be able to pass is under breaking, and you will probably get pulled on the straight.

If you are talking autoX, completely modding your suspension puts you in classes where you wont even see a stock typer or stock gsr.

And for kicks, my buddy has a 91 si with a very very built NA motor, full suspension setup, cage, and we still got pulled by just about everything at the track. But at the autoX he kicked *** (won dual at de anza).

So there really isn't an all around formula for what is the fastest for any given amount of money. Just remember, a sohc na car will hardly pass someone on the straight. There is no substitute for horsepower. If you can pass everyone in the corners but get passed back on the straight, where the finish line is, then what good is your car as a race car.

vactor

remember, i am talking dollar for dollar. so the $3300 has to not only include motor, but that means open dif, stock brakes, spruings, shocks, and tires. i think at the track, the cars you describe have SIGNIFICANTLY more $$ in it than just the motor. and you will be able to pass under not only braking, but in the turns as well. and i ind it VERY hard to believe that a car with only an extra 35 or 45 HP without the suspension mods will be close enough and fast enough to pass a the described car on a straight away after being DOGGED in braking and the corner of the previous turn. things just don't add up. ...

tonyxcom

But the braking in a stock gsr or type r is not that far off of what you can put in a civic that is still LEGAL. Dont forget what is LEGAL in the racing you do.

vactor

i thought we were talking swaps?? and stock GSR brakes LOL, you MUST be kidding me .. hahahahah

tonyxcom

we were talking about swaps, but you brought up spending money on suspension/brakes instead which you believe is faster then a b series swap. And its not a valid argument becuase when you upgrade brakes and suspension to a certain extent there are weight penalties, which make the few horsepower you have, even fewer. WHen it comes to swaps, a b16 has the same displacement as a d16 so it typically doesn't come with a penalty, assuming the swap is legal for your class. You goto bigger breaks - penalty. And don't forget about minumum weight rules. A d16 equipped hatchback has the same min weight as a b16 equipped hatcback. You upgrade your brakes, you add weight. You can do your own math from there.

Like I said, there is no set forumla for what is ALWAYS faster. And when you are talking about sanctioned racing, there are rules for everything.

Also, you can argue that you only have a 2500 budget since if you have that much, you can't even afford an odb2 swap. So you have no chioce but to spend it else where on the car. Half of which will come with a weight penalty. And you also assume that anyone waiting for swap has nothing else in his car. It may already have shocks/springs and sways.

Say you have a budget of $5000 to make a street/track car. Give that much money to spend on the same stock car, the dohc will win all the time at the track and drag strip and it will be a toss up at the autox.