92civicJDM

i am still debating what do do for my upcoming swap. It appears that there is a lot of contreversy on this subject. I want to be cost efficient, have a vtec, and with a moderate amount of tuning be able to run 14's at the track. From what i have gathered this is possible with both. Would i need to get a new transmission with the d series engines. come on people i need your advice on this i am still relatively new to the tuning game. I have a stock d15z7 with some minor suspention upgrades. So i need a new engine and i need help on deciding witch one to buy .

Kamin

b series.
dont be stupid.
sohc motors are moneypits that will never produce the power a b series will.

jas0n

ahh b series all the wayyyyyyyyyyy get a b18c or a b20

JaeOne3345

where is exospeedAMcrx? 13.6 daily driven....stock block d16a6 head work,FD, slicks, tuning. very affordable approach, so much for a money pit.

dohc is a great choice. i love dohc, but there are too many kids who think droppin 2500-3k on a b16a swap is the answer. sohc is a great choice also. many people put them down and don't put any thought into them. lots of dohc guys will hate on them, but to me thats just like a v8 guy saying a 4 cylinder is a stupid choice. SCCA ITA class crx's are powered by the mighty d16a6, if you've ever seen them run, you know those cars are nothing to be slept on.

money wise. i think any TRULY fast as **** motor is gonna be somewhat of money pit to a certain extent. all the people i know with fast dohc's..i mean fast..like high 12s and lower all motor (drag wise), have put a good heap of money into them. if u want to go fast with anything,u usually have to pay (unless u have a junkyard turbo kit).

its all about research. how fast u want to go isn't always about how big, sometimes its how much thought. u gotta think about what works for u, if dohc is the answer, go dohc..if sohc is the answer go sohc. in good hands, both can be fast, period. to simply dismiss one is ignorant. they are both awesome choices. i love a b18c R motor as much as i love to see d16a6's whoopin peoples asses. and vice versa.


[Modified by JaeOne3345, 2:31 AM 9/3/2002]

dirtySOHC's

nicely stated. i wish i could afford a b seires swap......but i love my lil y8. there is some power there

BERT-O

there's a guy here, (actually, someone whom i worked with) is making about 200hp and about 165 lbs of torque at the wheels in a SOHC.

however, he is supercharged with some gearing, he does hang with alot of DOHC with or without power adders.

its all about the research and the amount of parts working together.

B18C5-EH2

Here's what I think should be considered when choosing to stay SOHC or go DOHC:

1. MONEY

2. Vehicle Weight

3. Overall desired results

I think #1 is THE most important issue at hand. Too many people put themselves in financial binds trying to afford mods, whether it's the DOHC swap or the turbo SOHC build-up.

I think #2 is important to remember as well. Obviously if you have a 1988 CRX HF that weighs 1900lbs. or so you could easily spank many 1992-1995 Civics with DOHC VTEC swaps with only a SOHC non-VTEC motor slightly built. But if you have a 1996-up EX coupe it will be damn near impossible to get that car into the 13's with a SOHC and have totally reliable transportation. I know it's possible with boost, but boost will always concede reliability to stock orr very mild all-motor build-ups.

Lastly #3. How fast are you trying to go and how reliable do you want it to be? Stock B18C1 motors can easliy hit 150whp with little bolt-ons. It will take some serious all-motor efforts for the D-Series motors to approach those numbers, and even then you'll need that SRR final drive kit to even compete with DOHC tranny gearing. Overall it's common sense that anything done to a SOHC motor can be done to a DOHC motor and the DOHC motor will be faster. But again I point to #1 and you'll need to ask yourself what can you afford now and what can you spend later.

I personally went with a swap. Actually 3 different swaps to be exact.

I owned a 1992 Civic Si hatch with the stock D16Z6. The D16Z6 was so awesome to me. It ran great even with over 100K miles on it. So well that it pulled 15.6 in my full interior 2269lb. hatch on shitty Michelin street tires. This was with ONLY an AEM CAI and nothing more.Not sure what it dynoed, but it felt really good to be stock.

I swapped in a B18C1 when the SOHC trannies stopped holding up to my driving. That's the weakest link IMO for the SOHC stuff. The bearings are old and they get noisy, and if you don't replace them shortly they will lock up and you will have a broken tranny. I had this 2 times - this spurred me into getting the DOHC VTEC swap.

The B18C1 ran 14.6 with basic bolt-ons on 16'' heavy-*** wheels. A full second difference is a HUGE difference. It dynoed 150whp and 122ft/lbs. of torque. That's where I'd imagine the most heavily built SOHC all-motor would be at, and that would be borderline reliable for daily beatings.

Boosted SOHC motors can topple 150whp and certainly the torque of 122ft/lbs. of torque.

I say that if you can afford the DOHC motor then go for it. The advantages are very numerous. Lower mileage, stronger trannies with better gearing, more power potential, better reliability because you don't have to push it as hard to get the numbers you want, and the prices are going lower all the time.

I am going SOHC with my "beater" 1990 hatch. I am not going crazy with it, but it will be a basic build up and should see low, low 15's or dare I say high 14's. This will be with a SOHC non-VTEC motor.



Good luck with your choice! It's not as easy as some might think!

kevcp

SOHC all the way
head work, cam, I/H/E, fuel upgrades =
I Love my D16Y8 with all my mods I have yet to run an SI or TEG but I would love to just to see what that little engine could do.. I bet she could do more than one would think..
to you and you SOHC..

Mike D

Here is what i think. The reason im goign to stay single cam for a bit is just cause nobody wants them. z6 and y8 block (nevermind the non-vtec d's) can be had for so cheap compared to a B series block.

Ill be the first to tell ya B's will make more power, its true. But that doesnt mean you cant go fast in one (Bone???).

I know someone here made 210whp and on his Y8 with a greddy kit. Now, you can get a Y8/z6 swap for maybe 500-600 complete i would think(correct me if im wrong), and teh greddy kit, with the IC, is around 2500 or so? So thats 3000-3500 bucks for 210whp, and a gsr swap starts there for 150whp.

Now everyone can say you wont be as realiable as a stock/mildly modded motor, but who cares. It is still plenty realiable to drive daily and if you blow something, you can buy a new bottom block for 350-400!

Thats just my reasoning. Like B18C5-EH2 mentioned, its all about what you want. Most SCCA classes dont allow engine swaps, or many other mods for that matter. So it depends what you want to do. I think either way you can easily have a very fast car.

Good luck


Mike D

B18C5-EH2

The thing I've come to realize about SCCA is that once you begin to mod the car, you'd better be the best damn driver or have the utmost mods or you simply cannot compete.

If you're trying to compete in SCCA it's best to simply find a car that is classed well, but it, and then leave it stock save for good wheels and tires.

I love my car, but in terms of competeing in SCCA my class is ultra-hard because there are some really crazy-*** cars in there. Most are trailered queens that aren't street legal.

I simply compare my times to other street cars on street tires and I realize what a nice car I've got, because my driving isn't top-notch but I compete very well.


[Modified by B18C5-EH2, 10:44 PM 9/2/2002]

Mike D

Very true about choosing a car that is well classed. This seems to really be the case in IT. Even in auto-x, a few mods will usually put you in a class where you wont be competitive.

ECHC seems to be the one place honda are well placed. But then again its all hondas, so........ Have any NSX's or S2k's raced in H1 yet?? If so Jack is a lot sicker than i thought.


Mike D

97hb

Swap. I love torque, and you will too

JaeOne3345

exactly...but 99% of people think drag in a straight line when they think of "i want more power". a motorswap may be the answer for a dragger, but for an autocrosser or a open lap track day participant, it isnt always the case. ive seen numerous sohc cars at road race/autox evens straight serve dohc cars.(and vice versa)

another thing, as tom said, sohc trannies hold sohc back. his view is from a strength point, my view on a similar topic is sohc gearing. if u look at a sohc vtec tranny. it matches a god damn LS tranny. for acceleration purpose. for example, tom think how wack it would be if u put a ls tranny on that monster of yours in that cx, it would suck donkeyballs. now people, think of a lower powered sohc motor, with those same bunk *** gear ratios. get what im saying? sohc power isn't really limiting, its the gearing that is extremely limiting on d powered cars. tom, i was merely using your car as an example by the way, because i know it has to be a monster with that ats 4.9 equipped R tranny.(btw, have u seen the SRR 4.929 FD's for the sohc vtec trannies )

this topic always sucks because a few close minded fools who dont approach it the right way turn into a flame war.

dirtySOHC's

this has got to be the best replies i have heard about sohc's on this board.

everytime this topic comes up......ppl hurry up to bash on sohc's.

im glad some ppl see differently.

and about that 4.929 final drive? do you know the price of it. i emailed the place but i havent got a reply. i am highly.......HIGHLY interested in this FD

B18C5-EH2

I think the open-mindedness is getting a bit better here on H-T when it comes to D-Series motors.

I used to be all about swaps and preach that SOHC motors "sucked" until I realized that it's simply not true.

Also I don't think it's fair to try and belittle those who own D-Series motors simply because some of us own B-Series or H-Series motors.

Those of us who swapped were fortunate enough to have the funds, know-how, etc. to get it done. Not everyone enjoys these "luxuries" so I try to keep this in mind before I post "SOHC is dumb y0!" or whatever.

As far as SOHC gearing goes:

I've seen the ultra-cheap SRR 4.929FD - looks really cool. ($400.00 vs. the ATS $850.00 price)

If I were serious about SOHC I'd get it for sure, but right now I simply cannot dump money into a SOHC project when my B-Series project is near 12 second slips on a bone stock motor that I drive every day.

Also, I have the stock 4.400 FD in right now and it might actually be a tad quicker in the 1.4 mile this way on the shorty M/T slicks I ran - but keep in mind that the ITR gearing is WAY different from the SOHC tranny gearing save the JDM ZC tranny.


[Modified by B18C5-EH2, 11:44 PM 9/2/2002]

ExospeedAMcrx

92Civic:

the main thing to ask yourself is, What are your plans with the car? Are you looking for a future 11 sec/12 sec allmotor monster?
Or 14sec 1/4 miles good enough for you? Will you come up with more money later or what you spend now is all that you can do for a long *** time?

It all points to planning, what is economical and practical in your situation.
Not everyone will afford a B series swap, and not everyone wants to dump all that money for just a couple years into the hobby.

Don't be quick to choose on a B series for quick power. Just because you did a swap, doesnt mean your super fast already. You will have to invest more money, to get faster.

So look at your budget, look at your resources and choose wisely in the route you want to take.


In my case, I was a starving student. A few years ago/around 1995, I was so into the scene but couldnt get 3K to dump into a swap. So I did what I could with what I had. I knew I could only come up with $1000 here and there for the next months. And I wanted to race so bad. $2000 later, I built a 13sec all motor CRX.
Of course I have dumped more money into it here and there trying out new things. but in the end, that same $2000 is what is still holding up and letting me have fun racing the events the past few years.

Have fun and stay safe

Wil

dirtySOHC's

400 for the FD......thats better than i thought. anybody know where i can get a reasonable priced LSD for the y8 tranny?

pkek

YOU EVEN HAVE TO ASK THIS QUESTION!!!!! B series is the best motor, limitless upgrades

pkek

[QUOTE]b series.
dont be stupid.
QUOTE]

he said it best

95redcivicex

what about an H-series engine?

B18C5-EH2

There's a user here named EG6ajk or something that was selling a complete D-series tranny with stock Honda LSD in it for only like $350.00 or so.

Can't recall if it was cable or hydro though...

dirtySOHC's

just as sohc's have limitless upgrades. its all about how big your pockets are

dirtySOHC's

thats a good price for a whole tranny w/LSD. ill try look him up

B18C5-EH2

Come on man, if you cannot contribute some good discussion then please don't even post.

You've already stated that the B-series is the best motor, so tell me WHY since you are confident enough to scream it at someone as well as bolding it too.

JaeOne3345

same type of people who need to go attend an scca ita race. didnt i just talk about close minded people making this into a flamewar??? remember..we are talking about how diff set ups may be better for diff things.


[Modified by JaeOne3345, 5:05 AM 9/3/2002]