Paprika

Hi,

I got my rotors and pads replaced about 5weeks ago. about a week after the job my brakes have started squeeking when I first gently apply them, but after I push more to help bring the car to a start the squeeking/squeeling stops.

I noticed some anti-squeeking brake stuff and such in Autozone the other day I was there, could I use this stuff to solve my problem? What kind is the best?
Is there anything I should check for?

I got some ALBANY/DURALAST brakes from Autzone and some of their Valuecraft rotors.

Thank you so much!

Street Ghost

Did you install the shims for the brake pads? If not, it could be causing the noise. Also, did you remember to break them in properly?

Redline96LX

squeaking brakes...Ok
When you put in rotors, thats basic to put in, you've done that.
with pads, did you re-use your old shims? the shim is that little piece of thin metal that goes on the back of the outboard pad that has the wear indicator. inbetween the pad and shim, you put on that anti-squeal on, its sort of gummi after a few minutes.
Brake pad break in...you should search. Basically, no hard braking for the first 200 miles of them, and from personal experience, any braking at 95mph is fast breaking. Still, search for more info on pad problems and break in.

Paprika

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Redline96LX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">squeaking brakes...Ok
When you put in rotors, thats basic to put in, you've done that.
with pads, did you re-use your old shims? the shim is that little piece of thin metal that goes on the back of the outboard pad that has the wear indicator. inbetween the pad and shim, you put on that anti-squeal on, its sort of gummi after a few minutes.
Brake pad break in...you should search. Basically, no hard braking for the first 200 miles of them, and from personal experience, any braking at 95mph is fast breaking. Still, search for more info on pad problems and break in. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Well here is the thing, I didn't instlalll any of this myself. I took the car and new parts to a local mechanic I was reccomended to.

I searched the board already, or atleast tried to. It returned -0- results. Maybe I didn't search hard enough (Cause people tend to find results I didn't and then claim I half-assed it), but I have came up with nothing from this board yet.

Other than thoat the information I recovered from the net, as long as the pads were installed properly it's a property of the metallic part of the pad against the rotor which creates the noise, but my pads are ceramic... atleast thats what I believe the nice man at Autozone told me, So hell i dunno what to trust anymore and I don't know what to do

Fugeeu

Brake work is easy as hell. The first work I did on my car before oil changes. I had never done it before on any car and nobody was helping me. I still succesfully replaced pads/rotors easily. Do your own work for stuff like this. It'll be more gratifying, and you'll know exactly what was done and how it was done.

ej1 pilot

aftermarket brake pads=

Redline96LX

I hate to bask other mechanics, but I will. I'm not sayin I'm perfect, I am NOT ASE certified, but I do know business. Tires Plus- my mom's car, they used a airgun on the lug nuts for the wheels. The wheels are to be torqued to 80foot pounds. when I took those off, i needed a big guy and a 2 foot breaker bar, meaning they were NOT torqued right, rather quickly done with a airgun. Now, this can cause rotors to warp, causing you to spend more money there for brakes. Do you think its possible they might not have told you EXACTLY what they did cause they didnt wanna confuse you or inundate you with info that you might not understand? It is very possible, and possible something was not torqued right. THere are many brake installs on here, chaning pads and rotors on a civic is EASY. I'd be willing to help ya out, but basically you take off the wheel, and there is only one bolt to remove to take out the pads. yes metallic pads may squeal, but i've heard of a ceramic or two that do as well. Remember there is a brake in period for the pads and rotors to really match. I bought AEM pads, they are made by Nissin (who also make your calipers - good match huh?) And they have never made noise, they are a wonderful pad. It was designed specifically for that brake system, not a "good" generic part. These pads are performance, they last a while, offer better braking, less brake dust, and were 50$, all of this I will vouch for. Take a lot of pics for us. if your brakes still suck, I can and will help you put on new pads, and I'll give ya links and stores that sell good AEM brake pads. They are semi-metallic, and they are quiet.

Paprika

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Redline96LX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I hate to bask other mechanics, but I will. I'm not sayin I'm perfect, I am NOT ASE certified... </TD></TR></TABLE>
Thank you for responding Redline, and I appreciate your help.

Originally I had a mushy brake problem; brakes would go very far down and were 'spongy'. My cousin replaced my master cylinder for me... problem presisted, So I took it to pepboys for what I was told was a FREE brake inspection (ended up costing $16.99). They found my brake pads were basically gone for life, my rotors were below spec and my drive side axle boot was torn. They also reccomended, in an attempt to fix my mushy brake problem, that I have all of the brake fluid in the entire brake system replaced with new fluid. But they were not exactly sure why my brakes were spongy.

Based on their findings I found this mechanic and had him do the work since pepboys wanted wayyy too much $$$ for it. So for the record, I told him what I needed done based on the list of repairs pepboys gave me, i bought the parts myself and he done the labor.

After he done the work my brakes weren't really any better so I got some equipment w/ my next check with intent to bleed the brakes myself. Well, my equipment wasn't really good enough, the jack didn't lift high enough by itself amoung other minor things. I was able to bleed the first two wheels in Honda order on my car, haven't done the last two yet and my brakes are still as bad if not worse than before.

So right now I got squeeky brakes and a spongy pedal. I was thinking about calling the mechanic and asking him about why the brakes would start to squeek after a week of non-squeeking inital use.

One idea I did have in the back of my mind was to take my car to the autoshop at school, I have a good friend who has the class and they take in cars all the time and I wouldn't have a problem trusting them since their teacher is an ASE certified auto mechanic who checks every car they work on.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Art In Motion &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">aftermarket brake pads= </TD></TR></TABLE>
This I learned recently also..

I have to remove the rotor to replace both pads, isn't removing the rotor quite a bit of work?
While I'm at it I might as well get a 'big brake' system, no? Just wondering..

Redline96LX

Lets see, you have new pads, new rotors, and new master cylinder. I've heard of spongy brakes with people that take their rear drums and put in discs. this goes away with the upgrading to a better brake booster and master cylinder, but yours are stock, so you should have no problems with this. What is your exact brake setup? car, front and rear brakes, and such. The next logical step I can think of is the brake lines. Make sure there are no leaks anywhere, like the prop. valve. Also, the sponginess, how is your brake booster? is it okay? Brakes are affected by a leak in manifold pressure. Check all your vacuum lines. I guess to test it, get a friend, have the engine on. press the brakes, let go. then, disconnect the brake booster manifold line, this is a rubber hose that goes from the brake booster to your intake manifold. your engine idle will change when you do this, put your finger over the hole in the intake manifold. hit the brakes. with the outside air in the BB insted of a manifold vacuum, braking will be NOTICABLY different. If its the same, like on and off engine, braking feels the same, your problem is the brake booster.
Lastly, its a bitch, check your calipers. Its possible that they are not hitting right, like the piston in it isn't lubricated, or something like that. A leak, bled wrong, etc. It is crucial you bleed the brake lines right, that will DEFINATLY cause a sponginess, as well as uneven braking. if your rotors are new and so are your pads, they should brake in in 200miles. Brake squeal is caused by vibration, like the pad and rotor aren't flush. Its possible the caliper's piston is not level. When you got new pads, did you reuse your old shims? did you use a anti-squeal on them? go by directions, be liberal with it, and after 10 minutes but it on the pad, and reinstall. Give me all your info you have, and ill still try to help

Mike

P.S. Auto mecahanics at school are good usually cause there out to fix a car to have it fixed, not just to make a buck. Mine was awesome.

Paprika

Ok thank you for responding mate...

As I said, I didn't do the brake job myself, I had a local independent mechanic do all the work. I don't remember buying any new shims, nor were there any old ones in the box of parts he gave back to me when the job was finished.

The nice people at autozone told me to make sure I use caliper brake grease (little packet of lubricant) on all moving parts of the caliper, i got a package of this stuff and put it in the box with the brake pads I took to the mechanic and informed him to make sure he did use it. Also, I personally didn't buy nor request any anti-squeel be put on the brakes or rotors.

My master cylinar fluid level(s) has remained the same, I mean i check it every once in a while and it's still right where it was before. There are no leaks on the connections in the engine bay atleast, I check those often as a culprit.

Also, my braking power/abilty likes to vary from time to time. There are times when it is down right awful, and then sometimes it feels semi-better. I dunno, it may be just me but I thought I'd mention it.

In order for me personally do bleed the brakes correctly and fully I would need to get a new high-lift jack and another pair of jack stands and a dedicated budy to help me do it. I could get that stuff but I dunno if I want to be the one to do it.. my drive isn't the best one in the world.

I'll also re-iterate that my brakes squeek sometimes upon light forced contact with my rotors... after more pressure they shut-up.

I'll check the booster tommorow, right now I am tired but i have to do some stuff before I can goto bed. Thank you for your time!

Redline96LX

Also, the thing is, when you get pads that are NOT honda, you do not get shims. most dealers wont sell you shims without pads, but try and weasel em outta shims anyways. you NEED the shims, cause between the shim and pad is where anti-squeal goes. do all your brake work first, then at the end, go to a place and have them bleed them.

Paprika

Tested the brake booster the way to explained to me and the two other tests in the Service manual and the brake booster is working fine.

There may just be allot of air in my line that I have failed to get to when I done those so called bleeds the other day. Probably be best to take the car out to Pepboys and have them do a complete fluid exchange, it's like $40 which isn't bad to fix my brake problem but when you look at what little their actually doing (changing the brake fluid) one starts to get uneasy about the idea... because it may not totally fix my problem, but I sure don't have the time and complete set of tools to properly do it myself. Though I would love to so if it doesn't fix the problem I don't feel cheated or ripped off.

Hmm...

Paprika

I went and had a quick chat with the mechanic. He said the wear indicator could be bent. He also said he doesn't *think* there were any shims on the brakes when he worked on them, and that installing shims would make the brakes "thight" as if that were a bad thing...

EDIT: This page claims my brakes came with shims, interesting .. hmmm..

He also posed the theory that since the brake pads are semi-metallic they may be causing the squeeling, wheras the nice person at Autzone I just talked to said if they were installed properly (with anti-squeel, shim, ect..) they would be fine.

But his theory blaming the ware indicator sounds intreging. After looking at the diagrams in the manual I believe the following:

- Ware indicator is attached the shim, on the inner pad which is behind the rotor, therefore the rotor needs to be remove to get to it. Right?

Hit me up and let me know..

Redline96LX

tell me as much as you know about your brakes now. What year, make, model, car do you have? front pads and rotors if you know the name. i have a helms book from a 96-00 civic, all 1800 pages of it, its good. I may be able to help. Tell me as much as possible. U got drums in the back? Once again, if possible, take pics. But more info will help me diagnose your problem. Remember, I aint a mechanic out to screw you for money, and the truth is, with new pads, rotors, the shims, and anti-squeal ****, your brakes would be fine, the old saying that metallic pads are loud, thats for like old cars. Civics are good, known for good brakes. Everything should be lined up, cause squeal is a vibration. ...Has this car of yours ever been hit? it is slightly possible that your hub is off alignment, but likely not. Please get back to me, I know your a noob, and dont want u blowin your cash.

bgoetz

if you beat the hell out of them for the first 300mi then that is the problem. The only answer is to buy new pads. and this time be easy on them for 300

bgoetz

also who did you take it to in mansfield that is my home town???

Paprika

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Redline96LX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">tell me as much as you know about your brakes now. What year, make, model, car do you have? front pads and rotors if you know the name.... </TD></TR></TABLE>

Alright.
-1992 Honda Civic DX Sedan
-Front Disc Brakes/Rear Drum Brakes/NON-ABS
-Front Albany/Duralast Semi-Metallic Brakepads and Valuecraft Rotors, installed ~1 month ago.
-Rear Drum Brakes brand unkown, reported to be in good condition by pepboys ~1 Month Ago
-Recently Replaced Master Cylinder with Rebuilt one from Autozone because it was thought it caused the mushy brake problem I have, but the problem is still here.

- This problem varies in serverity thru-out the day, fades out after a few good stops: Brakes squeek upon inital contact with the rotor and the squeeking eases down to 0 when brakes are fully applied to bring the vehicle to a stop.
--My previous brakes which were worn down VERY VERY far never squeeked on me.

- This problem varies in serverity thru-out the day, seemlingly better in mornings, worse in afternoons: The brake pedal is "mushy" or sponge like. I can keep compressing it down, it never comes to a stop where it is near impossible to push more.

Overall the brakes DO work, but I have those two problems above.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bgoetz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if you beat the hell out of them for the first 300mi then that is the problem. The only answer is to buy new pads. and this time be easy on them for 300</TD></TR></TABLE> I am forever doing some serious braking, not really going easy on it because I am a spirited driver who uses his brakes avidly, from day ONE.

Not saying I am doing 90 in a residential and locking the wheels up for each stop sign.

Are there any pads I could use that wouldn't suffer from the inital braking being heavy? Whatever they are I probably wouldn't be able to get them since they probably cost Suffficent $$$.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bgoetz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">also who did you take it to in mansfield that is my home town???</TD></TR></TABLE>I only know the man by his first name, Carl. I schedualed an appointment with him for the 28th of this month, thats next week. But I would like to get solved by myself so I want to go ahead and look at them on Wensday since I don't work that day.

Today I picked up some of that Anti-Brake Gel that goes on the back of the shims and stuff, also some brake cleaner. Didn't have enough money for the anti-squeel spray on hand at that moment. Can go back to get some tommorow though.

Just for reference I have the following stuff on hand as a result of my brake problems:
- Brake Cleaner
- DOT4 Brake Fluid
- CRC Disk Brake Quiet
- Tubing for Bleeding Brake system

Well if you have any questions let me know. I really do appreciate your help.

bgoetz

you HAVE to drive new brakes and new clutches easy for about 300 miles. This means letting off of the gas alot sooner and allowing the engine to slow the car as much as possible. If you drive it hard you do risk messing the pads up for good. I am not saying that is what it is, but the nex time take it easy for a bit and then take the car down 97 from lexington to galion and have all of the fun you want

Redline96LX

DOT4 brake fluid? Please research this more, I hear on Hondas we are to use DOT3 bacause Dot4 has silicon in it or somethin, and its not good for our brake lines.

Alright kid, more thoughts:
Check your rear drums. Make sure they are ok, and sliding properly. Check your hubs, make sure they don't need to be lurbicated. Check your emergency brake, that its not rubbing by any chance. Is your master cylinder cap screwed on right?
New brakes - When you get a new rotor and pad they don't mesh 100%, on ANY car. the purpose of a brake in is to get the surfaces to touch smoothly, maybe not 100% flat, but so that the sort of mold, so the whole pad touches the whole rotor, thats how you get that strong firm grip. Brake in IS important. What you can do, with new brakes..
Get the car upto like 50mph, then hit the brakes lightly, like a sliding, and get down to like 15 mph. do this a lot, not a hard brake, give more room, so its like the pad will push against the rotor, like a slighty firm sliding, getting them to cut together. hard braking on new pads can cause a almost oily film to form on the pads. Its not really a oily ****, but stuff in the pad can come to the surface from excess braking and heat on the new pads. brake in should be 200 miles, thats what my book says, its about 3/4 a tank of gas. its like...feel it. dont slam, press slowly harder, get it to brake a bit, then let off, then more. this is important.
These shops say your car is "okay", but apparantly we havent fixed the problem yet, so we gotta check it all. How is the rest of your car, like engine? Maybe theres a manifold leak, causeing the brake booster to ****, making the pedal different. Is your pedal squeaking or anything? that can be fixerd with WD40, but like does it look or feel like anything could be bolted wrong? maybe the pedal, or master cylinder is off balance. check the level in the master cylinder. Make sure youre using the RIGHT brake fluid, and there are no bad seals or bad lines, like at the brake lines to the caliper, the rubber part. is the bleed screw tighetend right? I could check this for ya if i was there, but you gonna have to jus go at your car yourself, find a honest mechanic that wont just replace parts, but find the source of the problem. even if this all gets fixed, and you think your pads got all that **** on the face of em, that oily substance, get a light file or maybe a fine sandpaper, get your pads a lil scruffed again, smooth, but free of any **** on the surface. then a new brake in for the rotors. We gonna fix this ****!

Paprika

Alright, thanks for responding...

- DOT5 is the Brake Fluid type based on Silicone, I am NOT using that stuff. I have Castrol GT-LMA DOT5 Brake fluid. It's a high performance DOT4 Fluid. NOT Silicone. Most if not all brake fluids are the same within their specific DOT categories, so I don't think I need to buy any Honda Genuine Brake Fluid unless it doesn't cost too much cause I already have the Castrol and quite a bit of it. My Civic Service manual says I can use either Dot3 or Dot 4, so...

- I am new to this, I haven't even worked with my front disc brakes I dunno if I want to mess with the drum brakes. Even though I have a good idea how they work they envolve allot of small calibrated parts that I just don't want to even mess with. I'll resort to the rear brakes later. The sound is coming from the front wheels and if the rears where imposing resistance I would feel it so why check them when I am already limited on time?

- I thought we also established the brake booster was fine? From all the tests I've completed it seems to be working well. My pedal is also NOT squeeking.

- I investigated the cap on the brake fluid resivour a few days ago, it seemed fine and still seems to be that way. I double checked I was putting it on correctly and I was.

- Will check the lines to the calipers, i've investigated and checked the ones in the engine bay numerous times coming up empty handed.

Well tommorow I will look at the front brakes. I'll try to remember to post pictures too.

Archidictus

I've been doing brakes for a long time and this is the first time I've ever heard of a break-in period. If your brakes aren't "broken in" after a couple normal driving stops, you've done something wrong. Squealing, as was brought up earlier, is probably due to worn out or missing shims.

Paprika

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Archidictus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've been doing brakes for a long time and this is the first time I've ever heard of a break-in period. If your brakes aren't "broken in" after a couple normal driving stops, you've done something wrong. Squealing, as was brought up earlier, is probably due to worn out or missing shims.</TD></TR></TABLE>

How could I have done something wrong?

Redline96LX

Ignore mr. arch, there IS a break in period. If you don't believe me, check your Helms book. Look, it could be something minor, like a sticking rear drum piston, I dunno. Without being there, I can't take apart the whole brake system, make sure the lines are clean, and re-bleed it. My guess now is go my the helms bood, take apart the front calipers, replace the boot seal, relubricate all parts, have it professionally bled by good mechanics, Inspect the rear drum, that the piston is okay. Check the lateral runout of the rotors, Check for any vacuum leaks.
And yes, there is a brake in period for new pads, and if its fucked up, the pads can have insufficnent braking during their life if broken in in a hard fashion, braking hard, braking at 90+mph, etc.
Yes, general car books say about 200 miles brake in, but if you can't do that, the first like 10 are crucial. I don't know what to tell ya about finding a truthful mechanic. Autozone is for ricers, I did not like GOodyear's quality on anything but alignment, Napa may or may not be a bunch of ******* morons, so far PepBoys seems to be decent. ****, I found a good mechanic, but when he mounted and balanced my wheels at bagwell and mathis, his guys used a ****** air gun on my lug nuts.
Is your car at good alignment? Are your lug nuts torqued to 80lb-ft each? Doing them unevenly can cause premature rotor warp sometimes.

Filthy Focker!

I will tell you a little secret in the automotive world.

Even at the Honda dealer, this applies to. There are basically 2 types of brake pads. Semi-quiet and quiet. Don't laugh... Because of environmental issues, the material in brake pads will tend to cause the brakes to squeal...

Now, usually, at the dealership, they will install the semi-quiet ones and see if the customer comes back. If he does, and complains, they will install the more expensive quiet ones.

I do not believe in totally quiet brakes anymore, but what redline says as some value. If you want to eliminate it completely, call your autopart store and ask for the quietest brake pads they have. You will see that they have multiple sets for the same application.

Just a side note, alot of techs now use torque sticks to tighten lug nuts. That helps on the overtightening.

fs

Paprika

Hey, I have goodies for you:

Hosted on WTDR so give pics time to load up:





http://www.we-todd-did-racing....D.jpg









Ok, so it looks like the pads were the culprit because 1) there were no shims installed. 2) I didn't "break them in" properly...

These are only from the driver side, I don't plan to take off the other side just to check it. Odds are it's in the exact same shape. True, I also need a torque wrench.. but they are $$$

We'll see if I can't borrow one if I really need to before I get my next check.