devildog12390

Supercharged or turbo'd?


which should I do and what's the difference?


thanks

JdelMsolG

turbo.


save the superchargers for larger displacement motors.


end of discussion.
haha

devildog12390

what's the difference?


and more importantly which is cheaper?

JdelMsolG

well, im no expert at it, but i do know that 4cyl cars dont make a whole **** load of power out of superchargers. Superchargers put more strain on the motor from what i hear, but cant prove.

Really, you can piece a turbo kit together for cheaper then what you'll buy a new supercharger with. But you'll be looking to spend about the same if you purchase a brand name turbokit.


I can guarentee you'll make more power easier with a turbo setup.

Syndacate

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JdelMsolG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well, im no expert at it, but i do know that 4cyl cars dont make a whole **** load of power out of superchargers. Superchargers put more strain on the motor from what i hear, but cant prove.

Really, you can piece a turbo kit together for cheaper then what you'll buy a new supercharger with. But you'll be looking to spend about the same if you purchase a brand name turbokit.


I can guarentee you'll make more power easier with a turbo setup.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's the basic gist of it.

Displacement has a direct correlation with torque, 4 cylinder motors, and sub-standard size (less than 2.0L) motors, such as Honda motors, have even less torque.

The difference, in terms of a centrifugal supercharger (the one that's most like a turbo in terms of layout) versus a turbocharger, a supercharger is belt fed, by an accessory belt of the engine, while a turbo's turbine is spun by exhaust gas pressure coming out of the engine.

Supercharged cars often have a smoother, more naturally aspirated-like torque curve, though due to the displacement of the engine, generally don't make as much. A turbocharged car on the other hand, makes all its power at peak - because that's when it's revving the hardest and the most pressure is in the turbo manifold. The same could be said about a supercharger, but it's also taking torque away from the motor while it does this.

To put it simply: Monster trucks usually have V8's with a blower (supercharger) on them, and usually generate about 1400bhp. The supercharger requires 3-400hp just to spin the turbine and pull the air in to generate that much power. Which is fine if you have engines of those size (around 8L).

As far as pricing goes, for whatever reason, I'm not sure, turbos are often the cheaper route.

Reliability is the same.

The peak amount you can boost to is higher with a turbocharger on lower displacement engines, though. Though on the flipside you won't feel a turbocharger at 2300k RPM (when it's just starting to spool), while you would be feeling a supercharger.

Go with a turbo.

killa_bee07

reliability wise and consitancy i would go for a S.C. for big power numbers i would roll turbo. but dont get it twisted my boy had 16 that made nice power and was super reliable DD on a S.C.

Syndacate

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by killa_bee07 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">reliability wise and consitancy i would go for a S.C. for big power numbers i would roll turbo. but dont get it twisted my boy had 16 that made nice power and was super reliable DD on a S.C. </TD></TR></TABLE>

This is a common falsity, you do NOT get more reliability with a supercharger than you do with a turbocharger, both are based on how well your car is tuned, which is dependent on the tuning software (usually an OBD-I chipped ECU on crome is fine) and the tuner (dyno tuned is the best).

You do not get more consistency either, if your wastegate is working properly, it'll dump at the same PSI every time. This is why it's better to use an external wastegate, instead of a turbo with an internal wastegate.

Please search next time, this has been covered many times, also, it's covered more in the "forced induction" forum - where they talk about...forced induction.

drunk_0n_c0r0na

turbo

/help

devildog12390

thanks, I appreciate it.

I'll def. look into gettin a turbo setup pretty soon.

sorullo

i'll go supercharger... turbo kills your engine... supercharger won't....and is safer...

JDM15

for sure turbo man

THC07

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sorullo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i'll go supercharger... turbo kills your engine... supercharger won't....and is safer...</TD></TR></TABLE>

False! False! and False!

sageuvagony

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by THC07 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

False! False! and False!</TD></TR></TABLE>




<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sorullo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i'll go supercharger... turbo kills your engine... supercharger won't....and is safer...</TD></TR></TABLE>

killa_bee07

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Syndacate &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

This is a common falsity, you do NOT get more reliability with a supercharger than you do with a turbocharger, both are based on how well your car is tuned, which is dependent on the tuning software (usually an OBD-I chipped ECU on crome is fine) and the tuner (dyno tuned is the best).

You do not get more consistency either, if your wastegate is working properly, it'll dump at the same PSI every time. This is why it's better to use an external wastegate, instead of a turbo with an internal wastegate.

Please search next time, this has been covered many times, also, it's covered more in the "forced induction" forum - where they talk about...forced induction.</TD></TR></TABLE>

well then tell me why you dont see alot of turbo set ups in autocrossing. and most commonly you see n/a or S.C.

JdelMsolG

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by killa_bee07 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

well then tell me why you dont see alot of turbo set ups in autocrossing. and most commonly you see n/a or S.C.</TD></TR></TABLE>


You're an idiot. simply stated.


Its all in the tune.

And think about the logics of the matter.
A supercharger is ran by a pully system. Pully systems put stress on your motor.

But im not saying that a supercharger cant be ran reliably because it can.
It's truly ALL IN THE TUNE.

Rock_Henry1234

boost is boost. just depends on what you are tryin to do

THC07

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by killa_bee07 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

well then tell me why you dont see alot of turbo set ups in autocrossing. and most commonly you see n/a or S.C.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Responce and imediated pwoer are important with autocross.

if you read what syndacate said...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Syndacate &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


The peak amount you can boost to is higher with a turbocharger on lower displacement engines, though. Though on the flipside you won't feel a turbocharger at 2300k RPM (when it's just starting to spool), while you would be feeling a supercharger.

Go with a turbo.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Syndacate

Because turbos have something called "turbo lag" - that's the time between about 1k, and 2700 RPM where the turbo isn't spooling enough to add positive pressure. Superchargers don't have lag because they're constantly being spun via the engine's RPM. Natural aspiration doesn't have turbo lag because it doesn't depend on positive pressure. Turbos don't have the best response time due to this boost lag, though if the turbo is sized properly, the turbo lag shouldn't be but ~700 to 2500 or so RPM. Because of the boost lag, turbos are by far, NOT ideal for autocrossing, because if you get a turbo small enough that it won't have any turbo lag, it won't make power up top, when the engine is making its peak power, so your total peak power will be shot.

Superchargers have a torque curve that's very similar to natural aspiration, it's a strong curve, turbos don't have this, they suffer through turbo lag, and then shoot up, it's like an exponential increase, as the graph would be X (super charger or natural aspiration) vs the graph of X squared (turbocharging).

The power lag that boost lag of a turbo will give you, will KILL YOU in an autocross/road race, where getting on the power at the exact moment when you hit the apex is necessary. This is the same reason you don't see a lot of carburated vehicles doing autocross, even though a carb could dump more fuel into a motor than injection can (see drag cars, such as bisimoto's honda, notice the dual carbs) - the problem is carburation doesn't have a fast response time either, it has a bit of throttle lag - not ideal for somebody autocrossing/roadracing.

That's why you don't see turbos in autocross, you more likely see super chargers or natural aspiration.

You don't seem that smart so I'll dumb it down a bit for you:
Turbos:
- Most power on small displacement engines
- Have turbo lag (power lag)

Superchargers:
- Tax the engine's power, therefore, make less power
- Have near instant throttle response (no noticeable power lag)

Natural Apiration:
- Doesn't have power comparable to either
- Throttle response IS instant (no lag what-so-ever)

This is simply not true, regard anybody with a brain for further information.

-------------------

@ Both of you:
It's a common misconception that superchargers are less harmful to the engine, this myth is simply because superchargers don't make as much power on lower displacement (all honda) motors, so they're not going to make enough to blow the engine sky high. A large turbo can easily do that. JSRC rates their supercharger at around 160 IIRC, which is about a 50hp gain after 3000+ dollars 160 isn't enough to stress ur D series to the point where it blows - unless you're not tuned. With a turbo, you can throw 250hp at a D series block, and even on a perfect tune it can blow sky high simply due to the stress it's putting on the rods.

As far as reliability goes - they go as far as the tune. ALL THREE, a supercharger, a turbo charger, and a high end naturally aspirated build need to be tuned in order to be reliable. Usually with natural aspiration you don't need to worry so much because you're only adding 20hp or so, so it doesn't matter, but if you look at high end naturally aspirated builds, such as bisimotos (19* D series IIRC), he tunes his engines. If he left them stock, with what he has on there, they would eat themselves, just like a turbocharger or a supercharger.

I think JdelMsolG said it best:

This is true at this point. Try to learn from other people (people that know more than you, like me) rather than formulating your own (incorrect) opinions about things. You shouldn't be afraid to ask questions, though you shouldn't go around spitting knowledge you don't know anything about, either. I have made your same mistake numerous times. It's not a good one to make. Learn from people that know what they're doing, so you can learn the correct methods, reasoning, and then formulate better opinions based on accurate knowledge.

EDIT:
PS: Rodney, one of the best autocrossers in the US, IMO, and a member here on H-T, was testing a friend's dual setup in an autocross race, one that consisted of a supercharger for instant throttle response, then a valve that changed units at ~3500 or so to a turbocharger for maxium boost peak power. If I recall correctly it busted, but that's the ideal setup for autocross cars.

Though you also have to be careful because if you pump too much power into a FWD car and try to autocross you'll break the tires lose and understeer. The goal isn't maximum power in autocrossing, like it is in drag racing - it's finding a balance between pushing your suspension to the maximum (by giving it the most power) while keeping your wheels from spinning.

Ask any real autocross racer.


Modified by Syndacate at 4:39 PM 8/18/2008

Mikej425

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