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Whats up Honda enthusiast and everyone else!

I am not too sure where to start with this. I think I am in the right area. I am opening/starting a thread to keep track of my progress and hopefully (stretching that word) hopefully get some help and knowledge from some of the most experienced Honda Tech members and Honda mechanics. There are a few other reason I am starting this thread but that is boring. SO I will give a very short run down of what I am working with. I have a 1993 milano red Honda Civic EG hatchback. It has an H22a motor with an Integra Type R transmission. It has minor bolt ons. No internals. I will post photos asap to give a better idea.
I have a plethora of questions. I figure instead of opening threads all over the place for the information I can not find right out the gate that I would have 1 thread and ask them all in the 1 thread. I don't expect to have anyone reply or come up with perfect answers to my questions. This is also a helpful area for me to log my findings and help others with information that they can not find either. For an example, I might ask a question and hear nothing. I will continue to research and research until I do find an answer. Then I will post my finders here. It is a good place for me to keep things straight and in order on my EG. Along with having a chance to get a response to slow my continuing search for information/knowledge. Last but not least. If my questions make no sense, sound ignorant or just down right STUPID....just hang with me. Thanks.

Lets get to it...

I am trying to absorb as much information I can on tuning recently with Hondata on a P28 ECU. When I want to datalog with Hondata. What is the process I have to go through to do that? I know that is a very open ended question. But I dont understand once I have hooked my ECU to my car and I have it also hooked up to my laptop and SManager open I then hit the "record button"? and drive around town for a few days? To and from work, daily driving kinda stuff?

TomCat39

Your specific question right now of Hondata and it's processes might fare better in the engine management section.

I would slap a post in there but without the first paragraph, just the short and sweet, P28 ECU, Hondata and laptop. Do tell them what version Hondata you have, I'm assuming it's the S300.

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Thanks Tom, I appreciate the reply. It is an S300. I have figured out that is basically what I have to do. That the more times I datalog/record and daily drive the better. I can get a more over all reading that way. My ultimate goal is to be able to street tune my EG myself and get it as close as I possibly can to the correct tune for my type of daily driving. I have heard many horror stories of guys taking their cars to the dyno and having a tuner blow their motor right in front of them. The shop close to me, one of the tuners is really good, then I hear that one of them really messed up a few cars. The owners of those cars told me the same. I rather have it as perfect as I can without taking it in. In fact I would like to rent or pay for the pulls and do it myself in a perfect world. The shop I live close to will rent it out. Its about $200 less for me to do it myself. Im not drag stripping my EG or even tracking it. All im looking for is a quick smooth daily driver that I can rack the miles up on. I feel like I myself should be able to tune for that. One plus is I am already running a P28 ECU. I can always switch it back.

Right now, I am trying to find information on using a Wideband 02 sensor compared to using a Narrowband 02 sensor. The benefits to each if any and if using a Wideband is completely necessary or if narrow will do the job for what I am looking to do. Before I dive in I have to have all my ducks in a row.

Thanks to anyone stopping by and taking time to read this. Happy Holidays!

2x0

To datalog, have your laptop plugged in and hit the record button. When you view your graphs you will see the realtime datalogging. It records all sensors, but you can customize which ones you want to overlay on different graphs in the options.

A wideband is an essential tool for tuning. However, it is generally not needed after tuning is complete. Lots of people keep them installed with a gauge, especially on forced induction, to keep tabs on their AFR for signs of any problems.

A narrowband is only good for running closed loop, during normal driving to keep the AFR near 14.7:1 for fuel economy.

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Thanks for the reply 2x0. Hope your having a good holiday. I did a little more research on the narrow band and wide band 02 sensors. I have lots left to read up on. I will for sure be getting a wide band. I would also like to run both. The narrow band that is originally in it and then weld and attach a new one in a separate location. I am a little confused on that though. So if im just going to tune for the time being on the street then I should pull the narrow band, put in a wide band, then data log. But you mentioned i could run closed loop factory narrow band if im doing "normal driving". Im more or less trying to use this EG for daily driver. What would you suggest or i guess what route do you suggest i take? Thanks for any and all incite man.

2x0

For a daily driver, I would agree with keeping the narrow band for closed loop. You can choose to run only in open loop (option in Smanager), where the narrow band is not used, but this should only be done when tuning. Add a second bung for the wideband, hook it up to your ecu for datalogging purposes and you are ready to street tune.

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Thank you 2x0, you got my wheels turning. I understand the first part. I will get the bung and wideband installed eventually. I have a little fix coming up on the exhaust and would like to get it installed around that time. The second part is still a bit confusing to me. Im on HAmotor and Hondata website trying to absorb more info on that subject. So I guess my narrowband only reads a small amount/range. I did notice the closed loop option in SManager. Could I use the closed loop narrow band option and still run just fine? I would still set my other basic options that are available in SManager but keep the 02 on narrowband. I am probably missing the entire point and apologize for that. I just feel like since im very new at ecu adjustments and controlling that aspect of things that sticking with the narrow band (if an option) is the way to go for a little while. Until I can get my grips with things. I would hate to adjust something and destroy all the hard work. But then again I would be besides myself if someone else did that to my car. Thanks again, if you don't feel up to getting into detail that's fine too. I will keep doing more research.

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Here are a few shots of my eg.

2x0

Damn, lookin good!

The best procedure for tuning a new setup is as follows.

1.) Open a new base map in Smanager from the stock engine that most closely matches yours

2.) Switch it to Open Loop

3.) Adjust fuel injectors and trim to compensate for different fuels or injectors you have. This includes injector size and dead times. Also select the proper MAP sensor if not OEM.

4.) If forced induction, apply a base timing retard per psi of boost. This amount will vary based on fuel, compression, etc.

5.) Upload base map to ecu, the car should start. Wait for it to reach full temp to make any adjustments to fuel

6.) Adjust idle AFR, then datalog normal driving to adjust fuel maps

7.) Datalog and tune WOT pulls and watch AFR gauge to ensure your aren't leaning out

8.) Once AFR is close to where you want it for driving, closed loop can be enabled.

9.) Check spark plugs for any sign of detonation

10.) There is some other voodoo magic for adjusting timing, but I have never messed with it for a street tune. Just ran conservative timing. If you want this dialed in, go to a tuner with a dyno.

TomCat39

Are there any sources of info for tuning? I've done searches and come up dry. The only things I found are courses you pay a few grand to take and have to fly to etc.

Info on the cheap for this would likely be appreciated by many.

2x0

Chance EG

Hence why it's often hard to find an actual professional, reputable tuner.

The overall majority learn by trial and error, but obviously that's a scary concept when dealing with engines costing thousands of dollars lol. YouTube has some scattered videos on Hondata and Neptune tuning procedures which can at least help you learn the overall plane of things.

Personally, I've never tried to "tune" anything beyond uploading a base map like 2x0 listed above, and until I have an engine that I wouldn't mind risking it with, I won't try tuning a car myself.

2x0

Tuning a car to make it driveable and make some reliable power is easy, if you have the right tools and use them properly. Wideband AFR gauge, reading spark plugs, and datalogging can get you to about 95% of what a dyno tuner can do. It’s very empowering to do this yourself.

Are there risks? Of course. Just like there are risks building your own engine, or putting together a turbo system. With any of these, all you can do is research and do your best, hoping it doesn’t fail.

We learn more from our failures than our successes

Chance EG

Ah, the turbo S2000 I literally lost sleep over through the course of a few months...

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Thank you once again 2X0. This is one of the reasons if not the main reason I made this thread. I attached a few questions as you can see. But they are questions for me as well. I like to keep notes in my phone notepad and on my laptop. I consider this a "notepad" while being able to have the opportunity of others to chime in and possibly speed up the (never ending) process of me finding out the important info I need to continue to make the best out of my Honda. Those are questions that pop in my mind when I read your check list. It has been a tremendous help!




The best procedure for tuning a new setup is as follows.

1.) Open a new base map in Smanager from the stock engine that most closely matches yours
Q: Where is this option in Smanager? I looked through it but must have missed it. Or is it not an option until ECU is joined with car and also laptop? How well does a download from Hondata forums work. Ive seen a few guys throw up maps for download. Is it pretty risky? As in downloading then uploading then starting you car up.

2.) Switch it to Open Loop
Q: This is ONLY AFTER I have the wideband 02 sensor/Gauge installed correct?

3.) Adjust fuel injectors and trim to compensate for different fuels or injectors you have. This includes injector size and dead times. Also select the proper MAP sensor if not OEM.
Q: So, I know I have factory injectors so I'll be choosing the 345CC, But what or where would I find what trim is safe or correct? Or how do i find out a proper trim? All of these options are OEM for me. Dead times I'm going to have to read up more on.

4.) If forced induction, apply a base timing retard per psi of boost. This amount will vary based on fuel, compression, etc.
RIP tires. I can barely hook it as is. I cant imagine. HA

5.) Upload base map to ecu, the car should start. Wait for it to reach full temp to make any adjustments to fuel
Q: I guess again, Where should I look for a quality base map. I did see an interesting option on HAmotorsports website that you can easily choose your basemap options (MAP sensor, Fuel Injectors, Launch Control, Shift Light, Rev Lim, O2) then order that basemap. Then download the file they send you via email (I guess) from them for $29.99. Basically you fill the options in and they will make the basemap and send you the finished product. Your thoughts? Q: On the fuel adjustments after your car has warmed up to operating temperature, what is a "drastic" adjustment? SO I know not to go too high. If the car just wont turn over or "putters" I should slowly increase fuel?

6.) Adjust idle AFR, then datalog normal driving to adjust fuel maps
Q: Again, when adjusting the AFR whats extreme? Low and High.
Q: At this point my car should be able to make it around the block I would think. After lets say I do some normal driving what do you mean by "then datalog normal driving to adjust fuel maps." I know I will hit record in Smanager then go do my normal driving but the "to adjust fuel maps" is a little confusing to me. Could you go into anymore detail on that?

7.) Datalog and tune WOT pulls and watch AFR gauge to ensure your aren't leaning out
Q: When I and dataloging wide open throttle pulls and watching my AFR gauge, What is too lean and what isnt. Anything higher than 14.7 on a WOT pull? 14.7 on regular normal everyday driving? I need to read much more on this subject for sure.

8.) Once AFR is close to where you want it for driving, closed loop can be enabled.
Q: Im lost right about here. Haha. If i set the AFR with the wideband then enable my OEM narrowband back into commission how does that not reset my wideband adjustments?

9.) Check spark plugs for any sign of detonation
Q: What causes this? Running lean? Is there any warning signs to this? So that I can weed it out before I start to adjust something else thinking its something else. If that makes sense.

10.) There is some other voodoo magic for adjusting timing, but I have never messed with it for a street tune. Just ran conservative timing. If you want this dialed in, go to a tuner with a dyno.

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I would like my car tuned enough by myself that when I do take it to the dyno the tuner wont have to change too much and I can have some knowledge as to what he is doing. Instead of going in blind and handing my cars keys over. If I can get anywhere near that 95% I will be ecstatic. I would love to be able to help my friend out with his Honda as well. I believe knowing how to "street tune" is huge. I feel like this world needs quality tuners just as much as a quality mechanic.
The weather here is **** right now. Its single digits and snow on the ground. I'm basically garage livin and trying to absorb everything before spring so I can hit the ground running. I couldn't even drive the hatch let alone WOT pulls. haha I totally understand the part of not knowing until you actually go out and get your feet wet and start tuning. I'm extremely happy that Ive had some sound advice and activity here. Its awesome...

2x0

The answer to all of your Smanager related questions can be found below. I would recommend going thru each and every option in this help guide so you understand what everything does.

https://www.hondata.com/s300-help

So to start your new base calibration, you go to File > New and pick from the many basemaps available.

I would not bother using peoples maps they have posted online, you don’t know what they might have changed. You’re better off using a known starting point, being a tune from a stock engine and go from there.

If you are using OEM injectors, you shouldn’t need to change anything in the fuel trim or injectors tab. Fuel trim is more for things like different fuels, such as e85 which requires about 30% increase across the board, or adjusting for different fuel pressures.

At idle and anytime in vacuum, you want to aim for 14.7:1 AFR. I usually richen it up to about 13:1 right at 0 vacuum, and in boost 11.5:1.

I’ll have to get to the rest of ur questions tomorrow.

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Thanks 2X0. A lot of that cleared some things up for me. Greatly appreciate your help. The more I dont have to adjust the better. So the fuel injector part was very helpful. I've been digging into Hondata s300 help section a lot lately. Im confused on the richen it up to 13.1 at 0 vac. I feel like I will understand that when I actually get some pulls on the street. Unless there is a way you could explain how to adjust that or the process. If not its cool. I'm sure I'll work it out later.

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From what I have been reading. My motor is taking in a hell of a lot more air now with the upgrades then before. I was having a little bit of a rough idle issue. I ran through the vac lines again to see if there was anything open. I found bigger problems with the old vac lines then i wanted and i fixed those. But winter came and with fresh vac lines attached i cant take her around and see if that had fixed the issue. I went down a list to try to narrow down the issue. I'm pretty confident it was a vac leak. I'm a little worried to put the new Hondata equipped ecu on too soon. I want to make sure shes running well or as close as possible before i put the new ecu on. Or could my issue be the new upgrades on the motor causing it also. Anyone have any thoughts on that? When i hook the new ecu up, will Hondata tell me issues that need to be fixed (codes) before i dig in or will it let me tune my car if there is still a vac issue? I have two ECUs. One has the Hondata obviously, the other doesnt. Right now im using the one without hondata. Should I just hook the new ecu up and go through the motions as in let it warm up to operating temps, daily drive to let that ecu learn/teach and see how it reacts? Then go from there and tune?

2x0

If you start with a basemap from the ecu that does not have Hondata, then the car should run exactly the same with either ecu. Except with the Hondata, you can hook up your laptop, record a datalogs and see exactly what your engine is doing. Watching your MAP reading should tell you if it's actually a vacuum leak. Maybe you actually just need to tweak timing or fuel a bit to smooth out your idle.

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Cool, If i'm checking my MAP what figures am i looking for? Or a good range to be in? Is it different for each motor? Also when i tweak the fuel, what kind of increments are we talking? Or a safe amount to go either up or down by. This is all just in case scenarios. I just wanna cover all angles here.

Do i need any special gear to do the timing?

When i plug the new ECU in and pair my laptop up to it. I turn the key and start it, then hit the record datalog button. How long would i need to record to be able to see what if anything is wrong. Will it tell me some things in idle and some other things when driving. Or is there a location inside SManager that i can go to and see exactly what might need some attention or is faulty?

Topofthecrop

When calibrating my wideband after install i will check the reading on the wideband gauge at idle once my car has reached operating temp and check my AFR on SManager too. Is that all that I have to do in order to make sure its calibrated?

2x0

Most healthy Honda engines I've known will pull at least 18 inches of vacuum at warm idle, but plenty have done 20 or more. It should hold steady and not fluctuate, as should idle RPM.

I wouldn't tweak fuel until you have a wideband setup. Then you'll know how much to tweak it. I usually set my fuel table increments to 1% per click, but knowing that 1% increase or decrease usually translates to a 0.1 AFR change. So if you are off from your target by say 0.5 AFR, you may just go ahead and adjust that fuel column by 5%.

I would datalog whenever it is that you perceive there is an issue, and long enough that you capture the issue occurring. It might only take 5 seconds of datalog to capture a rough idle. Or you might datalog an entire drive trying to capture a random occurring event. It is up to you.

You will want to graph the things that are important or that pertain to what issue you are having. A standard graph might include RPM, throttle position, MAP, wideband o2, fuel pulse, VSS, and anything else you deem necessary. These things give you a wealth of information about what is going on, but you have to research and come to thoroughly understand how each is interrelated in order to put that information to good use.

I wouldn't recommend messing with timing tables in Smanager until you are on a dyno. Make sure your mechanical timing is correct and adjust the distributor with a timing light before looking for a problem with the calibration. The stock timing map should work fine until dyno tuning unless you have some extreme cams or head work done.

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Excellent, the more I get into the forums on hondata website and especially in the S300 help section you are making more and more sense. I plan on getting it to a dyno to do timing. Its stock cams and stock internals anyways. But i hope to have everything where i want it before i pay to dyno.
I will wait until i have the wideband set up correctly before i mess with fuel. Could i technically hook the Hondata ECU up and load a basemap/all the minor stuff and start the car and datalog the idle to find out what the issue is? I then fix it and slap the old ecu on until i can get the wideband. I know it sounds kinda dumb to go back an forth between ECUs but just curious. Thanks 2.

2x0

Again, switching ecu's should make no difference at all if you load the correct base map for your engine, so I would just run the Hondata ecu so you do have the ability to watch all of your sensors and datalog.

Best way to diagnose a vacuum leak tho will always be to blow some smoke around the engine bay.