HondaTeKnology

Which is a better motor to acheive 350 or more HP for a daily driver not to forget boosted. Which one is cheaper to acheive that goal? Plz help with details and any advice would be great

Alex_G

Neither unless you build the motor.

Boost_V

You should realize that if you're new to lots of power, then 350+ whp is quite a handful on the street. A stock B16 should can usually hold about 300 whp(people have made much more, but only for a one tie use until they blew something).

Anyway, the B16 has vtec if you didn't know that, but i wouldn't be overly concerned with that. What's your budget? Enough to build either motor?

HondaTeKnology

I have enough to build either motor first. What motor would u choose for the streets and why.

HondaTeKnology

ive done alot of reading on this website and found alot of people favoring the b16 and transmission over the LS. I thought torque was the way to go I guess not in this case. I know transmission wise b16 so why not mix that in with LS motor? OR does the b16 engine have more to offer?

Dramier

This is all my opinion, so let that stand before you take this as gospel, or somebody else jumps in here to argue.

I chose a B18 over a B16 for several reasons.. First and foremost being displacement. There are many ways to increase horsepower, but the biggest way is usually displacement. Hence why V8 guys take a 350 and make it a 383, or even a 454 into a 455... It's also usually the costliest and most difficult way to increase horsepower. But simple fact of the matter is in almost all cases more displacement will always make more horsepower with the same mods and money invested.

Secondly, I chose a B18 over a B16 because of lower compression ratio, and the fact that I do not intend to build anything other than a daily driver. I'm not planning on going to the dragstrip every weekend or winning any dyno competitions. So I chose the low compression B18B as in stock form it is ideal for turbo. It gives me a slightly better chance of avoiding detonation.

Third, I specifically did NOT want VTEC, as I do not want to deal with the additional hassle nor the issues of turbo and VTEC engagement in relation to tuning, mostly since I am learning and want to start off as simply as possible. In my personal opinion, VTEC is vastly overrated and I would rather have a motor that performs without it. Purely a personal choice and I am completely sure there are many individuals here who will no doubt try to argue that with complete disregard to my first statement in the post.

Also, the B18 is the comfortable middle ground to me. Going any bigger would involve a B20, at which point I feel like the extra cost and fabrication are simply not worth the relatively slight gains. Also, as far as I know, there are no non-VTEC factory B20's, although I could be wrong.

B18's also give me the option of OBD1 or OBD2 as I desire, plus a range of ECU's and transmissions, and if I want to add VTEC or try some hybrid B20/B16 stuff, I'm not limited at all. The aftermarket for B18 stuff is just as big as B16, and definitely not more limited like the B20. Bolt-ons and information are plentiful as it's been done many times before.

That's my view. As far as what applies to you, I think it boils down to you need to evaluate just what you want to achieve with your build. For street use, 250 or so horsepower is going to be your marginally safe upper limit given good quality parts, quality labor and effective and save driving. Anything above that and opening up that block is really going to start to become a priority to have something you can sleep at night on without worrying about breaking something. Then there's the aspects of availability. Can you tune your own car, or are you going to be dependent on somebody else? Do you have tuners available in your area? Then there's the other aspect of what happens when, and I say WHEN and not IF, your car breaks down? Will you be able to fix it over a weekend if a piston lets loose, or do you have another car you can drive in the meantime? Myself, I have three other cars I can drive if my turbo toy breaks. So for me it's not an issue to take some risks in the build. For you, it may not be feasible.

Anyway, ask whatever questions you have, but I hope this information will be helpful to you in deciding your course. I also hope you won't let my personal opinions and own decisions decide what you do, but instead do your own homework and come to your own conclusions, as there are always better paths out there. I'm just giving you my own experience and hoping it helps.

Throwdown

iTrader: (2)

B16 turbo all the way.....reason??? well this is a DD street application...why would you be gunning for TQ??? i'd like to somewhat hook-up anybody else into that??350 see it all day with b16-t's

Boost_V

Dramier went completely against typical h-t hater or nonsense posts. Dramier great info buddy.

SOme people may prefer the B16 tranny because of "better" gearing. What's better? Depends, because better to me would be better highway rpms(lower) as opposed to the B16 tranny, Good for the 1/4 mile, but most roads i drive on are longer than 1/4 mile

Like Dramier, i wasn't planning on going to the dragstrip a lot...what i wanted was a torquey, reliable daily driver.
Also, i'm not some street racing idiot who is trying to beat the next ricer on the street. I hope your not planning on trying to build some turbo beast just so you can fail to gain traction from light to light. I'm not saying you are, but there are plenty out there.

gl

schardbody

the B16 will make more power at moderate boost levels because the head flows SOOO much better.

the LS boosted will make a little more torque but wont have the top end the vtec head makes.

the transmission shouldnt even be an arguement, LS trans should be at the bottom of the list unless you care about highway cruising.

slowassBubble

i always though that with turbo an ls trannsmision was better because of the longer gear ratios....

Throwdown

iTrader: (2)

it's all in someones opinion of what they enjoy driving on the street i could really care less for a "torquey" motor.... you could ...i don't understand why people insist on degrading people who run there car on the streets either...i guess you made a typical H-T response to that.... who are you to lable them as idiots?.....but whatever the OP wanted info on both and he is getting it ....along with BS

dr.garagetuner

I personally dont believe the the LS tranny is at the bottom of the list when it comes to boosting one. (All motor yes the LS tranny sucks) Because when you mash it you have no gears anyways, you already fly throu them so quick. Why would you want a b16 tranny? You would definantly have no gears you would be in and out soo fast. Thats Just my opinion thou

Boost_V

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Throwdown &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">it's all in someones opinion of what they enjoy driving on the street i could really care less for a "torquey" motor.... you could ...i don't understand why people insist on degrading people who run there car on the streets either...i guess you made a typical H-T response to that.... who are you to lable them as idiots?.....but whatever the OP wanted info on both and he is getting it ....along with BS </TD></TR></TABLE>

The reason torque is usually more desirable for street use is usually because you use lower rpms much more. A small to mid sized turbo would yield the best results for the power you feel in lower rpms. I didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings when i said about street racing. I really don't care, but i guess since you seem hurt by it you street race. I don't care what people do, have fun with those tickets.

Panda Eg6

well about the LS tranny being "good for boost" is actually not true (in a qtr mile race..), its a great and comfortable highway tranny but it is proven that shorter gears = better acceleration. People try to say "well im in boost longer" true.. but are you going any where?..

Syndacate

The LS will &gt;&gt; the B16 in this situation - you'll have a lot more torque.

Not to mention with the longer trans you won't be getting raped in gas.

You can't push either much over 300 without building the block, but that's quite a lot for an economy car built to handle 150 at the wheels - tops. It's kinda hard to control the car reasonably on the street when its got a drivetrain like so and it's dropping 400hp. I would know, my friend had a 400whp Y8 that he drove every day and it was impractical as possible - he had to lower the boost for more practicality.

Get the LS, boost it to 290whp, be happy with that knowing you'll cook just about any mainstream, typical car on the road, while still maintaining drivability, dependability, and practicality.

forcefedferio

eh, well in my personal experience....

00 Civic SI-b16a t3/t4 turbo on 8 psi.
95 Civic EX- b18a t3/t4 on 8 psi.

both cars street tires and full interior.

Roll races- Civic SI everytime
Dead stops- Civic SI everytime

Bone stock LS VS. Bone stock b16 same turbo same PSI....curtains for the LS.

Boost_V

^^^good info, I think we're taking into consideration times when not racing someone. (driving to work) But if that's what's really important to the OP, then

jasoncrashtech

i love b18's and b20's but i know three people that have gotten burnt valves in cylinders 3 or 2 in both heads. ( all cars where stock )

despite this i still plan on a boosted ls in the future. i'm not knock'n the b16 at all, but i would hate the tranny

5th gear+80mph+5000rpm's=

Throwdown

iTrader: (2)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Boost_V &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

The reason torque is usually more desirable for street use is usually because you use lower rpms much more. A small to mid sized turbo would yield the best results for the power you feel in lower rpms. I didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings when i said about street racing. I really don't care, but i guess since you seem hurt by it you street race. I don't care what people do, have fun with those tickets.</TD></TR></TABLE>its all good no hard feeling's here .... i like your response +1 respect for you...BTW i don't plan on getting tickets ... i haven't raced on the street in years but i have nothing against it or people that do it

schardbody

i personally dont know ANYBODY to boost a honda and not race.

whether it be on the street or the track unless you are racing to 150mph the B16 trans is going to win EVERY SINGLE TIME as long as all other factors are the same.

simple torque multiplication is the reason. of coarse with the LS trans you will be in boost longer, only because you dont make it through the powerband as quickly, why??? not as much torque multiplication and everytime you shift you drop out of the powerband, or further down in it.

as for the torque vs hp arguement. the differance between a boosted LS and boosted B16 in the torque department is very slim, maybe 5% differance whereas with the HP gain from the B16 over the LS will be alot greater of coarse thats due to the higher RPM the vtec motor turns.

there are a TON of advantages to the B16 over the LS in a street driven daily driver, or a track only car.

as for VTEC just complicating things, thats just an excuse. sure you might spend a little more time tuning, but not much. &lt;---- sounds like a cop-out for not wanting to spend the extra dough on a vtec motor to me, but thats just my opinion.

so dramier what fabricating is required with a b20 that isnt required with an LS??? its the same swap except maybe the intake manifold swap, which is FAR from fabricating. B16's are also avail in each OBD configuration, and the ECU's are plentiful, not that it matters since after boosting you will at the very least need to chip the ECU. your post just keeps getting better. what is available aftermarket for the LS that isnt for the B20???? im just proving that you are ONLY pushing an LS because thats what you got. infact the ONLY disadvantage to the B20 over an LS or B18 as you say is one you didnt even mention. the cylinders are alot weaker since they use the same block with a bigger bore so under boost they tend to crack or distort.

oh crap he got something right. the LS does have lower compression than the B16, whats that mean less chance of detonation??? sure, but thats another excuse, with proper tuning and proper working parts detonation isnt an issue.

all the issues that are going to happen with a B16 are potentially a problem with an LS or any other motor. with the exception of the VERY few components that make up the vtec system. and if something fails and vtec doesnt engage OMG, nothing is going to happen, its not gonna blow up, its not going to overheat, its not gonna stop running, you will just get a CEL and no vtec. take 10 minutes diagnosing the problem and fix it.

the LS really has NO advantage over a b16 when boosted. im sure plenty of people will argue, but its just because they have an LS.

disclaimer: read my first sentance. now if he comes back and says " this goal for this build it to increase MPG" then yeah, i retract EVERY statement i made.

Schister66

The B16 is a good engine, but if it were my decision, i would find a GSR longblock and some ITR cams. I'm at 315whp on a stock GSR block...this spring i'm planning to retune on E85 shooting for 350whp. BTW, this is my DD

racebucket_eg

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dramier &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I chose a B18 over a B16 for several reasons.. First and foremost being displacement. There are many ways to increase horsepower, but the biggest way is usually displacement. Hence why V8 guys take a 350 and make it a 383, or even a 454 into a 455... It's also usually the costliest and most difficult way to increase horsepower. But simple fact of the matter is in almost all cases more displacement will always make more horsepower with the same mods and money invested.</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dramier &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Going any bigger would involve a B20, at which point I feel like the extra cost and fabrication are simply not worth the relatively slight gains. Also, as far as I know, there are no non-VTEC factory B20's, although I could be wrong.</TD></TR></TABLE>

These two paragraphs contradict themselves IMO. And <U>ALL</U> factory b20's are non-vtec.

Both are good motors are good for stock internal boost set-ups, but the b16 swap gets my vote for reasons already stated.

andoxviii

iTrader: (1)

For a DD, you definitely want the LS.

The longer gearing of the LS transmission will be better for cruising around on the highway because you will be at a lower revolution, which means you won't be in-boost going 120kph.

Having higher torque also means you won't have to rev the nuts off of the motor to move anywhere, thus saving more gas. "There's no replacement for displacement" used to be a phrase I laughed at, childishly thinking a turbo will solve anything...but there really is no replacement. 1.8L &gt; 1.6L

HondaTeKnology

thanxs 4 the advise yur the first person to break it down like that. Thanks

schardbody

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by andoxviii &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For a DD, you definitely want the LS.

The longer gearing of the LS transmission will be better for cruising around on the highway because you will be at a lower revolution, which means you won't be in-boost going 120kph.

Having higher torque also means you won't have to rev the nuts off of the motor to move anywhere, thus saving more gas. "There's no replacement for displacement" used to be a phrase I laughed at, childishly thinking a turbo will solve anything...but there really is no replacement. 1.8L &gt; 1.6L</TD></TR></TABLE>

its obvious you dont have a clue how a wastegate works.

you wont be boosting at highway speeds unless you mash on it and vacuum inside the manifold starts to drop.

i swear everyone is acting like the LS has GOBS more torque than the b16. IT DOESNT.

furthermore, ask anybody with a 99-00 if they have to rev to high hell to drive around town. dont forget HONDA put this combo together to be a very quick street driven car (even though its not), it was hondas racer boy setup, why not take it and make it better with boost.