K series into my 99 hatch
10-23-2004, 07:47 PM
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K series into my 99 hatch
ok to start i am no newb so don't tell me to search. i have a few realistic questions.
alright, i have a 99 civic hatch. it is SLOW, so i'm going to give it a pick me up. i had my mind set on doing a b16 swap and doing a slight build on a ls block for it for boost on the ls/vtec a little later down the road, but i just want a swap for the moment. well i just ran upon an ultimate deal on a k20a3 (03 civic si). i know it is the weaker of the k series, but i assume it can be made into an a2 for a bit. here are my real questions. is it possible to retain a/c, like custom a/c lines and use the k20 compressor or what. what is the deal with the axles? last what do you do about the computer, hondata?
i know i could have the mildly built ls/vtec for around 3k, but if i can get this motor in for around the same price it would be worth it just to experience the next generation of swaps.
alright, i have a 99 civic hatch. it is SLOW, so i'm going to give it a pick me up. i had my mind set on doing a b16 swap and doing a slight build on a ls block for it for boost on the ls/vtec a little later down the road, but i just want a swap for the moment. well i just ran upon an ultimate deal on a k20a3 (03 civic si). i know it is the weaker of the k series, but i assume it can be made into an a2 for a bit. here are my real questions. is it possible to retain a/c, like custom a/c lines and use the k20 compressor or what. what is the deal with the axles? last what do you do about the computer, hondata?
i know i could have the mildly built ls/vtec for around 3k, but if i can get this motor in for around the same price it would be worth it just to experience the next generation of swaps.
10-23-2004, 08:14 PM
#2
Re: K series into my 99 hatch (ViperRedCRX)
Well, if you are going to go into all this trouble, don't swap the k20a3. Waste of time and money. It would cost you the same to swap a b18c5 probably.
There are many reasons why I am not a fan of swapping the k20a3 motor. Honda messed up on that motor in my opinion.... Leave it where it is..
Do realise the differences between k20a3 and k20a2
read this
The K20A3 does not have a standard DOHC VTEC valvetrain as we know it from the B-series engines - the K20A3 should actually be called a "DOHC i-VTEC-E" engine, because it uses a VTEC-E cam setup. The K20A2 is the "real" DOHC i-VTEC engine, utilizing the standard DOHC VTEC cam setup we're all familiar with. To help you understand the differences between the K20A2 and K20A3 engines, I've included the following information from a post I made elsewhere:
Allow me to evaluate. Let's start out by defining some terms:
VTEC - Variable valve Timing and lift Electronic Control. At low RPM, a VTEC engine uses a normal cam profile to retain a smooth idle, good fuel economy, and good low-end power delivery. The VTEC mechanism engages a high-lift, long-duration "race" cam profile at a set RPM value (i.e., ~5500RPM on the B16A) to increase high-end power delivery.
VTEC-E - Variable valve Timing and lift Electronic Control for Efficiency. This system isn't really VTEC as we know it. At low RPM, the VTEC-E mechanism effectively forces the engine to operate as a 12-valve engine - one of the intake valves does not open fully, thus decreasing fuel consumption. At a set RPM value (i.e., ~2500RPM in the D16Y5), the VTEC-E mechanism engages the 2nd intake valve, effectively resuming operation as a normal 16-valve engine. Note: in a VTEC-E engine, there are no high-RPM performance cam profiles; this engine is supposed to be tuned for fuel economy, right?
VTC - Variable Timing Control. This is a mechanism attached to the end of the intake camshaft only which acts as a continuously variable cam gear - it automatically adjusts the overlap between the intake and exhaust cams, effectively allowing the engine to have the most ideal amount of valve overlap in all RPM ranges. VTC is active at all RPMs.
i-VTEC - intelligent Variable valve Timing and lift Electronic Control. This is a combination of both the VTEC and the VTC technologies - in other words, i-VTEC = VTEC + VTC. Currently, the only engines that use the i-VTEC system are the DOHC K-series engines.
Now this is where things get tricky - Honda uses the term "DOHC i-VTEC" for two different systems: The first system is used in the K20A2 engine of the RSX Type-S. The second system is used in the K20A3 engine of the Civic Si.
The First System (K20A2):
This system is pretty close to the older DOHC VTEC engines. At low RPM, the K20A2 uses a normal cam profile to retain a smooth idle, good fuel economy, and good low-end power delivery. At 5800RPM, its VTEC mechanism engages a high-lift, long-duration "race" cam profile to increase high-end power delivery. The only difference between this i-VTEC engine and the older VTEC engines is the addition of the VTC system. The intake camshaft has the automatic self-adjusting cam gear which continuously optimizes valve overlap for all RPM ranges.
Here we see an image of the intake cam lobes of the K20A2. Notice there are 3 lobes; the two side lobes are the low-RPM profiles, and the center lobe is the high-lift, long-duration profile which engages at 5800RPM. Basically the same setup as the old VTEC engines we are familiar with.
Now here we see the VTC mechanism - the gear on the end of the intake cam that adjusts valve timing (overlap) automatically on the fly.
This system is used in engines powering the JDM Honda Integra Type-R, Civic Type-R, Accord Euro-R, and the USDM Acura RSX Type-S and TSX.
The Second System (K20A3):
This system does not really conform to the "DOHC i-VTEC" nomenclature, as Honda would like us to believe. As I mentioned in my previous post, it actually should be called "i-VTEC-E," because it uses a VTEC-E mechanism rather than a standard VTEC mechanism. At low RPM, the VTEC-E system effectively forces the engine to operate as a 12-valve engine - one of the intake valves does not open fully, thus decreasing fuel consumption. At 2200RPM, the VTEC-E system engages the 2nd intake valve, effectively resuming operation as a normal 16-valve engine. There are no high-RPM performance cam profiles; this engine is tuned to balance fuel economy and power, rather than provide pure performance. On the intake cam, there is the VTC mechanism which basically is an automatic self-adjusting cam gear used to continuously optimize the valve overlap for all RPM ranges. This being a VTEC-E system - and not a true DOHC VTEC system - is the reason the K20A3 redlines at a measly 6800RPM, while the K20A2 is able to rev all the way to 7900RPM.
Here we see an image of the intake cam lobes of the K20A3. Notice there are only 2 lobes - there is a nearly round one used only for the low-RPM disabled intake valve, and then there is the regular lobe used by the other valve at low-RPM and by both valves at high-RPM:
This system is used in engines powering the USDM Acura RSX base, Honda Civic Si, Accord 4-cylinder, CRV, and Element.
Special note: The K20A3 engine used in the Acura RSX base has a slightly different intake manifold design from the K20A3 engine used in the Civic Si. The RSX engine uses a dual-stage manifold, similar in concept to the manifold of the B18C1 in the old Integra GSR. It uses long intake runners at low-RPM to retain low end power, and switches at 4700RPM to a set of shorter intake runners to enhance high-end torque. This accounts for the extra 9 ft-lb of torque in the RSX (141 ft-lb, vs. 132 ft-lb in the Civic Si).
Here is an image showing just how this dual-stage manifold works. On the top, you can see the low-RPM (long) runners are in use, and on the bottom, you can see the high-RPM (short) runners in use.
Myths:
1. The i-VTEC engine engages VTEC gradually, and not suddenly like in the old VTEC engines.
Wrong. The i-VTEC engine "engages VTEC" at a single set RPM, like always. Whoever started this rumor is a fucktard. Read the definitions above.
2. VTC engages at a set RPM.
Wrong. VTC is always activated. Read under "VTC" above.
3. The K20A3 engages VTEC at 5000+ RPM.
Wrong. Technically, there is no "VTEC" (as we think of it) in the K20A3 engine - it uses a VTEC-E technology, which engages at 2200RPM. Read under "The Second Sytem" above
Now the axles, wiring all can be bought...
On top of the engine you will need another $2000-$3000 for the mounts, axles, fuel fittings, wrining, ands other stuff...
Take a look that the guide you get with hasport mounts for EK
http://www.k20a.org/EKK1.pdf
Also I have made posts about the swaps at
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=871847
do it yourself wiring for EG
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=938441
That should give you an idea.
Anyhting you need to know just ask.
If I had 8K I would go with the k20a type r in a EG/EF/EK
For 6K I would do the k20a2 (type S)
For 4k I would do the k24a stock longblock +civic Si tranny
There are many reasons why I am not a fan of swapping the k20a3 motor. Honda messed up on that motor in my opinion.... Leave it where it is..
Do realise the differences between k20a3 and k20a2
read this
The K20A3 does not have a standard DOHC VTEC valvetrain as we know it from the B-series engines - the K20A3 should actually be called a "DOHC i-VTEC-E" engine, because it uses a VTEC-E cam setup. The K20A2 is the "real" DOHC i-VTEC engine, utilizing the standard DOHC VTEC cam setup we're all familiar with. To help you understand the differences between the K20A2 and K20A3 engines, I've included the following information from a post I made elsewhere:
Allow me to evaluate. Let's start out by defining some terms:
VTEC - Variable valve Timing and lift Electronic Control. At low RPM, a VTEC engine uses a normal cam profile to retain a smooth idle, good fuel economy, and good low-end power delivery. The VTEC mechanism engages a high-lift, long-duration "race" cam profile at a set RPM value (i.e., ~5500RPM on the B16A) to increase high-end power delivery.
VTEC-E - Variable valve Timing and lift Electronic Control for Efficiency. This system isn't really VTEC as we know it. At low RPM, the VTEC-E mechanism effectively forces the engine to operate as a 12-valve engine - one of the intake valves does not open fully, thus decreasing fuel consumption. At a set RPM value (i.e., ~2500RPM in the D16Y5), the VTEC-E mechanism engages the 2nd intake valve, effectively resuming operation as a normal 16-valve engine. Note: in a VTEC-E engine, there are no high-RPM performance cam profiles; this engine is supposed to be tuned for fuel economy, right?
VTC - Variable Timing Control. This is a mechanism attached to the end of the intake camshaft only which acts as a continuously variable cam gear - it automatically adjusts the overlap between the intake and exhaust cams, effectively allowing the engine to have the most ideal amount of valve overlap in all RPM ranges. VTC is active at all RPMs.
i-VTEC - intelligent Variable valve Timing and lift Electronic Control. This is a combination of both the VTEC and the VTC technologies - in other words, i-VTEC = VTEC + VTC. Currently, the only engines that use the i-VTEC system are the DOHC K-series engines.
Now this is where things get tricky - Honda uses the term "DOHC i-VTEC" for two different systems: The first system is used in the K20A2 engine of the RSX Type-S. The second system is used in the K20A3 engine of the Civic Si.
The First System (K20A2):
This system is pretty close to the older DOHC VTEC engines. At low RPM, the K20A2 uses a normal cam profile to retain a smooth idle, good fuel economy, and good low-end power delivery. At 5800RPM, its VTEC mechanism engages a high-lift, long-duration "race" cam profile to increase high-end power delivery. The only difference between this i-VTEC engine and the older VTEC engines is the addition of the VTC system. The intake camshaft has the automatic self-adjusting cam gear which continuously optimizes valve overlap for all RPM ranges.
Here we see an image of the intake cam lobes of the K20A2. Notice there are 3 lobes; the two side lobes are the low-RPM profiles, and the center lobe is the high-lift, long-duration profile which engages at 5800RPM. Basically the same setup as the old VTEC engines we are familiar with.
Now here we see the VTC mechanism - the gear on the end of the intake cam that adjusts valve timing (overlap) automatically on the fly.
This system is used in engines powering the JDM Honda Integra Type-R, Civic Type-R, Accord Euro-R, and the USDM Acura RSX Type-S and TSX.
The Second System (K20A3):
This system does not really conform to the "DOHC i-VTEC" nomenclature, as Honda would like us to believe. As I mentioned in my previous post, it actually should be called "i-VTEC-E," because it uses a VTEC-E mechanism rather than a standard VTEC mechanism. At low RPM, the VTEC-E system effectively forces the engine to operate as a 12-valve engine - one of the intake valves does not open fully, thus decreasing fuel consumption. At 2200RPM, the VTEC-E system engages the 2nd intake valve, effectively resuming operation as a normal 16-valve engine. There are no high-RPM performance cam profiles; this engine is tuned to balance fuel economy and power, rather than provide pure performance. On the intake cam, there is the VTC mechanism which basically is an automatic self-adjusting cam gear used to continuously optimize the valve overlap for all RPM ranges. This being a VTEC-E system - and not a true DOHC VTEC system - is the reason the K20A3 redlines at a measly 6800RPM, while the K20A2 is able to rev all the way to 7900RPM.
Here we see an image of the intake cam lobes of the K20A3. Notice there are only 2 lobes - there is a nearly round one used only for the low-RPM disabled intake valve, and then there is the regular lobe used by the other valve at low-RPM and by both valves at high-RPM:
This system is used in engines powering the USDM Acura RSX base, Honda Civic Si, Accord 4-cylinder, CRV, and Element.
Special note: The K20A3 engine used in the Acura RSX base has a slightly different intake manifold design from the K20A3 engine used in the Civic Si. The RSX engine uses a dual-stage manifold, similar in concept to the manifold of the B18C1 in the old Integra GSR. It uses long intake runners at low-RPM to retain low end power, and switches at 4700RPM to a set of shorter intake runners to enhance high-end torque. This accounts for the extra 9 ft-lb of torque in the RSX (141 ft-lb, vs. 132 ft-lb in the Civic Si).
Here is an image showing just how this dual-stage manifold works. On the top, you can see the low-RPM (long) runners are in use, and on the bottom, you can see the high-RPM (short) runners in use.
Myths:
1. The i-VTEC engine engages VTEC gradually, and not suddenly like in the old VTEC engines.
Wrong. The i-VTEC engine "engages VTEC" at a single set RPM, like always. Whoever started this rumor is a fucktard. Read the definitions above.
2. VTC engages at a set RPM.
Wrong. VTC is always activated. Read under "VTC" above.
3. The K20A3 engages VTEC at 5000+ RPM.
Wrong. Technically, there is no "VTEC" (as we think of it) in the K20A3 engine - it uses a VTEC-E technology, which engages at 2200RPM. Read under "The Second Sytem" above
Now the axles, wiring all can be bought...
On top of the engine you will need another $2000-$3000 for the mounts, axles, fuel fittings, wrining, ands other stuff...
Take a look that the guide you get with hasport mounts for EK
http://www.k20a.org/EKK1.pdf
Also I have made posts about the swaps at
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=871847
do it yourself wiring for EG
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=938441
That should give you an idea.
Anyhting you need to know just ask.
If I had 8K I would go with the k20a type r in a EG/EF/EK
For 6K I would do the k20a2 (type S)
For 4k I would do the k24a stock longblock +civic Si tranny
10-23-2004, 08:33 PM
#4
Re: K series into my 99 hatch (ViperRedCRX)
lol,
basically the K series makes more sense in the case where you get a b series motor and you start pumping money to get maximum HP all motor.
K series Stock internals +header+ k pro > B series with a lot of internal ****
here;s an example
Let;s take a look at this B series setup
b18c1 w/ a.e.b.s. t-sleeves
86mm ross pistons 12.5:1 compession
manley rods
a.e.b.s. main/head studs
b16 head with stage 7 d.p.r. port work
welded and reshaped chambers
ferrerra valves
dpr valve springs w/ crower retainers
crower custum ground camshafts
hytech header (thick tubing)
toda cam gears/toda timing belt
rc 440cc injectors
ericks racing 72mm throttle body
type r mainfold port matched to head
toda flywheel
msd digital 7
wahlbro 255 fuel pump
cometic head gasket
hondata intake manifold gasket
hondata s200
p28 ecu
93 gsr cable tranny
xs fuel pressure reguator
pro drive oil pump gear
moroso oil pan
Here;s the dyno run
220 whp /148 tq
The cost list the owner gave out looks like this.
COST DOESN"T ACCOUNT FOR THE INITIAL ENGINE, TRANNY, LABOR,
a.e.b.s. sleeves-800
a.e.b.s. head and main studs-180
ross pistons 12.5:1 86mm-600
manley rods-495
dpr stage 7 head-2300
valves-300
cams-900
cam gears-300
toda timing belt-150
hytech header-1400
rc injectors-225
intake manifold-160
ericks racing throttlebody-300
pro drive oil pump gear-300
moroso oil pan-200
moroso oil pickup-80
hondata-400
balance&blueprinting 250
$9,285 again without labor install, gaskets, etc...
Like I said, it is a no brainer to me. This b series motor still has some potential but it is very limited...
On the other hand, a k20a2 type S motor can give you the same numbers with I/H/E K pro and some good tuning. Assuming the k20a2 is on a hybrid car because the RSX headers are very restrictive due to their design.
Not trying to put down the N/A B series people... I would love to have one but I don;t see the point starting a 10K B series project when for the same money you can have a K20a/k20a2/k24a-k20a frank.
basically the K series makes more sense in the case where you get a b series motor and you start pumping money to get maximum HP all motor.
K series Stock internals +header+ k pro > B series with a lot of internal ****
here;s an example
Let;s take a look at this B series setup
b18c1 w/ a.e.b.s. t-sleeves
86mm ross pistons 12.5:1 compession
manley rods
a.e.b.s. main/head studs
b16 head with stage 7 d.p.r. port work
welded and reshaped chambers
ferrerra valves
dpr valve springs w/ crower retainers
crower custum ground camshafts
hytech header (thick tubing)
toda cam gears/toda timing belt
rc 440cc injectors
ericks racing 72mm throttle body
type r mainfold port matched to head
toda flywheel
msd digital 7
wahlbro 255 fuel pump
cometic head gasket
hondata intake manifold gasket
hondata s200
p28 ecu
93 gsr cable tranny
xs fuel pressure reguator
pro drive oil pump gear
moroso oil pan
Here;s the dyno run
220 whp /148 tq
The cost list the owner gave out looks like this.
COST DOESN"T ACCOUNT FOR THE INITIAL ENGINE, TRANNY, LABOR,
a.e.b.s. sleeves-800
a.e.b.s. head and main studs-180
ross pistons 12.5:1 86mm-600
manley rods-495
dpr stage 7 head-2300
valves-300
cams-900
cam gears-300
toda timing belt-150
hytech header-1400
rc injectors-225
intake manifold-160
ericks racing throttlebody-300
pro drive oil pump gear-300
moroso oil pan-200
moroso oil pickup-80
hondata-400
balance&blueprinting 250
$9,285 again without labor install, gaskets, etc...
Like I said, it is a no brainer to me. This b series motor still has some potential but it is very limited...
On the other hand, a k20a2 type S motor can give you the same numbers with I/H/E K pro and some good tuning. Assuming the k20a2 is on a hybrid car because the RSX headers are very restrictive due to their design.
Not trying to put down the N/A B series people... I would love to have one but I don;t see the point starting a 10K B series project when for the same money you can have a K20a/k20a2/k24a-k20a frank.
10-23-2004, 08:45 PM
#5
Honda-Tech Member
Re: K series into my 99 hatch (Nikos)
lol.... dont **** with Niko when it comes to K swaps. He'll school you with info you never thought excited. Thats his major 
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10-23-2004, 10:46 PM
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Re: K series into my 99 hatch (Ricey McRicerton)
what are the pros/cons of the k20 vs the k24, i noticed for 6k youd do the k20 and for 4 you would do the k24 i know nothing about them so it defys logic too me, so id like to take this opprotunity to learn about it, sorry for hijacking
10-23-2004, 11:25 PM
#10
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Re: K series into my 99 hatch (Se7ens Travels)
i'm not sure if you're going to get the whole swap in for 3,000... i was considering it but it is just too much money and effort to put it, but it is certainly worth it if you are dedicated. you will need k-pro for the ecu. and as for the SI k20a3 dont' even bother because i read that a b20 can keep up with it.
10-23-2004, 11:53 PM
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Re: K series into my 99 hatch (EJ7COUPE)
The funny thing is... every K series swap into an EK from any magazine I've seen has blown up somehow. I believe the K series EK hatch that SCC did a story on was blown up in a competition they held a few months after the article.
Don't get me wrong, nobody knows the true potential of hte K series just yet, but I've heard of more problems with boosted K series than I ever have of boosted B16a/B18c series motors.
Don't get me wrong, nobody knows the true potential of hte K series just yet, but I've heard of more problems with boosted K series than I ever have of boosted B16a/B18c series motors.
10-24-2004, 05:55 AM
#16
Re: K series into my 99 hatch (Jonestown)
thanks guys. Most of the info, I copied from other posts.. I don;t have that much free time anymore
As far as the K series blowing up, the SCC EK turbo blew up because the people from SCC, drove it around with no oil
I have heard that story from a few people that worked on the car.
In Honda challenge H1, there have been several failures of rods. The rules, don;t allow the use of aftermarket rods in that class. For drag racing the stock rods are fine but it seems like in circuit racing, beating on them is not suggested.
Things that you should know about the K series swaps.
The k24a swap from an accord, element, CR-V with an Ep3 tranny in an EG/EK/EF will yield around 160 whp/160 torque with power from the begininning. As soon as cams come out, with proper tuning, header, hondata it will be bale to touch 200whp... and that's without Type s head.
Every junkyard I called has at least one or two accord, element, CR-V longblocks.
They go for $1000 on average.
This swap will become the LS swap of tomorrow.
Note: ONLY THE CR-V block can receive the TYPE-S head with no modifications
the other 2 k24a have egr crap that has to be removed/machined
Last note because my time is out.
Coming soon:
One EG, one dynojet, one k20a, one day, 7 headers shootout.
As far as the K series blowing up, the SCC EK turbo blew up because the people from SCC, drove it around with no oil
I have heard that story from a few people that worked on the car.In Honda challenge H1, there have been several failures of rods. The rules, don;t allow the use of aftermarket rods in that class. For drag racing the stock rods are fine but it seems like in circuit racing, beating on them is not suggested.
Things that you should know about the K series swaps.
The k24a swap from an accord, element, CR-V with an Ep3 tranny in an EG/EK/EF will yield around 160 whp/160 torque with power from the begininning. As soon as cams come out, with proper tuning, header, hondata it will be bale to touch 200whp... and that's without Type s head.
Every junkyard I called has at least one or two accord, element, CR-V longblocks.
They go for $1000 on average.
This swap will become the LS swap of tomorrow.
Note: ONLY THE CR-V block can receive the TYPE-S head with no modifications
the other 2 k24a have egr crap that has to be removed/machined
Last note because my time is out.
Coming soon:
One EG, one dynojet, one k20a, one day, 7 headers shootout
.
10-24-2004, 08:21 AM
#17
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Re: K series into my 99 hatch (ViperRedCRX)
OK I have done the k20 swap into a 2000 civic si its alot of work but its fun to say you have a K20. The axles are custom. Hasport makes good ones. I used a tsx dc sport header that will get by the cross member. It won't bolt up you have to cut and weld you the exhaust. I also used the hybrid racing wiring harness. Really easy to use. Some wiring to the stock k20 harness. Lits like 6 wires. Not to hard. OK THE HARDEST PART. Making the shift linkage. Thats the hardest part. I also used hondata KPRO on the car. I do have some pics if you want them PM me your email
10-24-2004, 09:17 AM
#18
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Re: K series into my 99 hatch (Nikos)
Damn Nikos your so damn smart 
(I'm being dead serious lol) 
. Find out of the k20 is off a CRV then Viper? So you can just put a type-s Head on it.
(I'm being dead serious lol) . Find out of the k20 is off a CRV then Viper? So you can just put a type-s Head on it.
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