EGTeK

I have recently installed my USDM 22mm Rear Sway and my car is still understeering.

Setup:

Si's on stock michelins (40psi front / 45psi rear)
Front- Spoon lower tie, gsr cross member, gsr strut bar, gsr lca + 24mm sway.
Rear- Spoon lower tie, Rear upper tie, gsr lca + 22mm ITR Sway
Progress Springs on Stock Shocks

well, i thought that adding the 22mm rear would eliminate my understeer. when i was testing out the bar at a open parking lot, a quick u-turn would cause my front to understeer. rear didnt break loose at all. lane changes on the freeway however are a lot more dramatic then the gsr 14mm bar.

edit: are you guys oversteering with your itr bars? is it my tires or spring/shocks that is hindering my rotating ability?

thanks for reading


[Modified by EGTeK, 11:54 PM 4/8/2003]

eh2666

My eg oversteers fine w/ a rear itr sway its' your front bar that's ******* you over.

eg6sir-s

with your suspension complete with all the bars that rear itr sway in addition with the gsr front sway you will have oversteer...
eliminate the front gsr sway and use the stock front civic sway in addition to that have your tire pressure 29psi if you have a hatchback/coupe if you have a sedan use 32psi and you should be set. '40psi on front and 45psi on the rear' damn your looking for a blowout on the freeway.

*one thing to remember about tire pressure is whatever the chassis(stock) specification calls for stock wheel pressure be...thats what is has to be.


Modified by eg6si at 10:52 AM 4/9/2003

eg6sir-s

its not just that, the combination front gsr with the rear itr sway is killer(overkill) on suspension...its best that you utilize front ex/si sway with the combo itr sway.

keep in mind although we use the same parts as the dc/dc2 chassis we cannot have all of it on our chassis(eg)... different configuration.

purplehazek4

i had the same problem so i went a little more positive camber in the rear and my problem was solved

YellowKahuna

fallow eg6si advice and you'll be O.K.

agent87

Just a thought. I'm not sure how low Progress springs are but if your front suspension is already sitting on the bumpstops, hard turns will effectively make your front spring rates infinity. Let us know if the other suggestions (particularly alignment) work though.

EGTeK

good info guys. thanks for your advice. well, ill start out with getting a computerized alignment. 1/8th toe out in the front. and tire pressure to 30/30. ill see how everything goes.

Oh, im not riding on bumpstops. my car is actually a pretty nice height all around.

i figured that the 24mm bar would be a good compliment to the 22mm rear. i guess ill try a 21mm. Anyone want to trade me for a gsr bar?

monicle

I would think that if you wanted to increase oversteer then you would toe out the rear rather than the front. mabe im just crazy.

Doctor CorteZ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by monicle &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I would think that if you wanted to increase oversteer then you would toe out the rear rather than the front. mabe im just crazy.</TD></TR></TABLE>

not crazy , just wrong.

kommon_sense

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EGTeK &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">good info guys. thanks for your advice. well, ill start out with getting a computerized alignment. 1/8th toe out in the front. and tire pressure to 30/30. ill see how everything goes.

Oh, im not riding on bumpstops. my car is actually a pretty nice height all around.

i figured that the 24mm bar would be a good compliment to the 22mm rear. i guess ill try a 21mm. Anyone want to trade me for a gsr bar? </TD></TR></TABLE>

I would try the followin before swapping the front sway bar :

1) Lower tire pressure. Maybe 30psi front, 35psi rear
2) Change front toe. Toe out will increase your turn in, but you will lose a little steering coming out of the turn. Try 0 toe front.
3) Get rid of those stock michelin tires!

If all else fails then go to a smaller front sway bar, but I really don't think that is your problem.

EGTeK

will do! azenis on the way soon

Doctor CorteZ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kommon_sense &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Try 0 toe front.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I would run max factory toe out , its way better than zero...

96 SOHC VTEC

My car still understeers. I always thought it was because of the spring rates. I have GC coilovers, Koni Yellow shocks, front and rear strut bars, and a Comptech 22mm rear sway. This is with 325F and 245R spring rates.

SlippylesKB

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EGTeK &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Front- Spoon lower tie, gsr cross member, gsr strut bar, gsr lca + 24mm sway .
Rear- Spoon lower tie, Rear upper tie, gsr lca + 22mm ITR Sway
Progress Springs on Stock Shocks </TD></TR></TABLE>

Right there is your problem my friend. You are stiffer in the front then you are in the rear. That is the exact opposite that you want if you are going for oversteer. Hope that helps.

Scott

IS3Fifty

i guess its not a good thing to have to tight of a suspension. Ill remember this when im updating my sway bars on my hatch. Is it ok to go with ITR front and rear sway bars? or is it just the combo of both that makes it too tight?

kommon_sense

You want the right balance of front and rear. If you *WANT* oversteer, then you typically want a larger bar in the rear.

kommon_sense

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Doctor CorteZ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I would run max factory toe out , its way better than zero...</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree that toe out will improve your turn in and initial steering, but toe in will cause you to lose turn out so you won't have as much steering coming out of the turn. This can cause what many people would consider to be understeer.

tonyxcom

I dont know what the big deal here is.

Cars that oversteer can still understeer and cars that understeer can still oversteer.

Any why it matters on the street with stock tires is beyond me.

Take it to the track and make changes there.

And let me tell you this.

No civic will swing its rear end making a u-turn unless you are on the brakes.

Also, if you don't know how to induce oversteer, then you shouldn't be driving a car that does.

EGTeK

tony a car doesnt naturally oversteer if it has to be induced. its the facts that people praise the 22mm bar and post about how dangerous it is. i was wondering if there was something wrong with my setup because even if i was to swing the wheel hard while going 50, it can still easily be recovered (parking lot).

**** ill induce oversteer on a damn caddy if i wanted to. please if your not going to answer the question dont reply.

tonyxcom

There is more to car setup then just the sway bar.

You also have to consider spring rates, shock valving, tire preassure, toe and camber.

Just adding a heavy rear sway will not make you oversteer.

SkyeC

Eh, I can initiate oversteer in my 92 Si with nothing but ITR shocks and OTS Integra Ground Controls.

Also, Integra Type Rs come with relatively soft springs, a 24mm front bar and a 22mm rear bar and it is a *great* moderate set-up for racing.

Quit screwing around on the street and go see how it handles in a track or autocross environment.

And be careful with big swaybars and not-so-stiff suspension combos, it's not so great for your subframe, reinforced or not.

That stock tire recommendation for the car applies to the stock tires and a compromise between mpg, comfort, tirewear, etc. You're not going to be very near that during racing conditions, or so I've always found.

FWIW, I run 38f/35r pressures on 195/60-14 Azenis and it has worked out very well for me.

monicle

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Doctor CorteZ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

not crazy , just wrong.</TD></TR></TABLE>

ughhh....toe-ing out the rear WILL increase oversteer. when the rear tires are pointing more slightly outward than the wheel with more pressure on it (the outside wheel) is pointing more towards the outside of the curve/corner. This effectively pulls the rear end of the car towards the outside of the turn.[

kommon_sense

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by monicle &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

ughhh....toe-ing out the rear WILL increase oversteer. when the rear tires are pointing more slightly outward than the wheel with more pressure on it (the outside wheel) is pointing more towards the outside of the curve/corner. This effectively pulls the rear end of the car towards the outside of the turn.[</TD></TR></TABLE>

Toe-ing out your rear is typically a bad idea. You are going to sacrifice straight line stability doing this.

monicle

agreed but if the origionator of the post is wanting to increase his oversteer then my origional post is not wrong in the slightest. Additionally the origionator in a later post mentioned increasing the toe out in the front wich would only increase understeer....hence the reason for my first post. Just defending myself. oh another tip. if those progress springs lower your suspension get the camber corrected and zeroed in the rear. a negative camber also inhibits your ability to oversteer.