92CivicLSI

Ok! I have been reading post until my eyse bleed on H&R and Eibach Springs. I need some help and input on these 2 types of springs. Half of what i read stated that they like the Eibach and the other half stated they liked H & R, but no one stated if the ride was bouncy. Are either of these any good, problems, what?
Can anyone give me some sort of help on these 2 springs? or any opinion on Tein Springs?


Bouncy and Uncomfortable

Targa250R

A "bouncy" ride has little to do with the springs. Bouncing is caused by dampers that do not have enough force to control the movement of the springs.

Also keep in mind that "bouncy" and "bumpy" are two different ride qualities. A "bumpy" ride is caused by stiff springs . . . and the stiffness of the spring is determined by the spring rate, not necessarily by the brand name.

A soft spring rate coupled with "street" damping will have a comfortable ride, and will soak up most bumps. However, soft springs require more suspension travel, and allow a lot of body roll when cornering.

A stiff spring rate coupled with "sport" damping will have a rough ride, and will not soak up many bumps or pavement irregularities. However, the suspension won't need as much travel, body roll will be greatly reduced, and handling will be improved.

Most people only judge a spring by the amount of ride height change advertised. This is horrible. Most people make the mistakes of using a spring that is too soft for their ride height (because so many people insist on riding around with their cars "slizzamz0red, y0!!!!1" and are only into suspension for looks - they could care less about ride quality or handling), using dampers that cannot properly control the springs, or buying a "race" setup to drive on the streets, slapping it on without any tuning, and expecting it to ride well and handle well.

So to answer your question, the brand of spring you choose should not be as much of a factor as what you're looking to do with the car, what spring rates will best suit your needs, what your budget is, and/or what dampers you will use with them (or vice versa, choose your dampers based on what spring rates you intend to use). If you let us know these things, it is easier for us to help you out.

Suspension is a very complicated subject, as you can see. Most people try to oversimplify it, or even worse, are just too stupid, ignorant, or lazy to do the proper research before buying. I'm glad to see you're actually trying to get some input from others, and doing your research beforehand

snatch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Targa250R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A "bouncy" ride has little to do with the springs. Bouncing is caused by dampers that do not have enough force to control the movement of the springs.

Also keep in mind that "bouncy" and "bumpy" are two different ride qualities. A "bumpy" ride is caused by stiff springs . . . and the stiffness of the spring is determined by the spring rate, not necessarily by the brand name.

A soft spring rate coupled with "street" damping will have a comfortable ride, and will soak up most bumps. However, soft springs require more suspension travel, and allow a lot of body roll when cornering.

A stiff spring rate coupled with "sport" damping will have a rough ride, and will not soak up many bumps or pavement irregularities. However, the suspension won't need as much travel, body roll will be greatly reduced, and handling will be improved.

Most people only judge a spring by the amount of ride height change advertised. This is horrible. Most people make the mistakes of using a spring that is too soft for their ride height (because so many people insist on riding around with their cars "slizzamz0red, y0!!!!1" and are only into suspension for looks - they could care less about ride quality or handling), using dampers that cannot properly control the springs, or buying a "race" setup to drive on the streets, slapping it on without any tuning, and expecting it to ride well and handle well.

So to answer your question, the brand of spring you choose should not be as much of a factor as what you're looking to do with the car, what spring rates will best suit your needs, what your budget is, and/or what dampers you will use with them (or vice versa, choose your dampers based on what spring rates you intend to use). If you let us know these things, it is easier for us to help you out.

Suspension is a very complicated subject, as you can see. Most people try to oversimplify it, or even worse, are just too stupid, ignorant, or lazy to do the proper research before buying. I'm glad to see you're actually trying to get some input from others, and doing your research beforehand </TD></TR></TABLE>

Couldn't have said it better myself

92CivicLSI

That has to be one of the BEST posts from Targa250R that I have ever read. Your right to say that I am looking before hand to see what is out there and getting opinions.
What I have right now is a 92 Civic with a 98 LS engine and a 95 GSR tranny and Tokico Illuminas wrapped in RSR springs (black one and they are bouncy). So what I am looking for is a nice stiff feeling ride that does not bounce like coilovers,and can give me the best over all ride and handling.
So far the winner looks to be H&R Sports, unless you can give me a good reason for something else.

CooBlueDAB

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92CivicLSI &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That has to be one of the BEST posts from Targa250R that I have ever read. Your right to say that I am looking before hand to see what is out there and getting opinions.
What I have right now is a 92 Civic with a 98 LS engine and a 95 GSR tranny and Tokico Illuminas wrapped in RSR springs (black one and they are bouncy). So what I am looking for is a nice stiff feeling ride that does not bounce like coilovers,and can give me the best over all ride and handling.
So far the winner looks to be H&R Sports, unless you can give me a good reason for something else. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I think you forgot something he said he needed.. stock ride height? or lower?

HatchEh2

VERY VERY VERY NICE AND INFORMATIVE POST!
Unfortuently...when i first got into the import scene i didnt care to much to search...blew $115 on POS NUMBER ONE #1 coilovers....quit possible the WORST set ever.......the lower the bouncyer, but not just bouncy in a hoppy way, ...this **** is ridiculious like some damn hydrolics on the car....in turn: horrible ride!

im currently lookin for Eiabach's to lower my eh2 the most and handle the best and not bounce hard...after my turbo my suspension will get supped out the ***.. control arms, cross bars, sway bars, frame locks, dampners, shocks, everything... most ppl overrate suspension upgrades and dont pay attention to there significants

do urself a favor, do the research first

92CivicLSI

I would like to lower it a little, but not slam it. Targa250R was right when he said

"Most people only judge a spring by the amount of ride height change advertised. This is horrible. Most people make the mistakes of using a spring that is too soft for their ride height (because so many people insist on riding around with their cars "slizzamz0red, y0!!!!1" and are only into suspension for looks - they could care less about ride quality or handling), using dampers that cannot properly control the springs, or buying a "race" setup to drive on the streets, slapping it on without any tuning, and expecting it to ride well and handle well."

gftgrill

I have eibach sportlines on tokico illuminas. the eibach's feel like the stock springs, only lower. there is no bounce in my ride. what ever way the road goes is the way my car goes. there is a shitty highway here that makes me look and feel like I'm bouncing, but my wheels are just staying with the road and with little suspension travel it doesn't help.

but as far as H&R or eibach, go with which ever. they are pretty much the same. unless your talking about the Eibach pro kit (that doesn't even compare to the H&R).

also make sure that the front springs you choose is capable of handling the extra weight in the front from your swap and possible turbo.

92CivicLSI

I have been looking at the Integra H&R Sports for my ride to handle the extra weight.
I wasnt a drop in height but nothing to drastic or harsh. If I want that I would put bags on it.

n1div

I've had Eibach Pro Kit, Tein S, and H&R sports, Neuspeed Race springs.

Eibach will be the softest one and really only excels in comfort, imho.

Tein is a bit soft too but seems to be more of a level drop than Eibach.

I had H&R sports and is a good compromise between handling and comfort but I got rid of them when I got my swap.

Neuspeed Race is a bit on the stiff side with little attention to comfort.

I currently run Integra Rate GC coilovers and they are good.

Since you have a swap, you might find the springs mentioned above, on the soft side if you turn corners hard and fast. If you're only looking for comfort, then the Tein or H&R sport should be good.

Just curious why you don't turn up your dampening on your Illuminas to better match your RSR's? I can't imagine RSR springs to be really stiff(above 450lbs/in)... Or maybe the RSR's are just too low. Are you sure your Illuminas aren't blown?

I've previously used 450lb/in springs without at bounciness, even with my Illuminas set to 3.

92CivicLSI

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by n1div &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Just curious why you don't turn up your dampening on your Illuminas to better match your RSR's? I can't imagine RSR springs to be really stiff(above 450lbs/in)... Or maybe the RSR's are just too low. Are you sure your Illuminas aren't blown?

I've previously used 450lb/in springs without at bounciness, even with my Illuminas set to 3.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I swapped the RSR onto the car at the begging of this bouncy ride with stock shocks. I blew them out ( my fault not the Springs) so I ordered the Illuminas. When I got them on the car it was the worst ride I have ever had, bouncy and all over the place. it was so bad that I could not drive 15 miles to work on them no matter what setting. I dont think that springs are bad just wrong for the swap.

RSR spring rate. http://www.rs-r.com/products/s...s.php

You asked and interesting question, are the Illuminas blown? how would you tell? is it like stock and leak fluid?

00Red_SiR

Excellent information given by Targa250R and so very true when describing how most people shop for springs.

If you read most chassis engineering and handling books, they recommend using the softest spring your combination allows, combined with the biggest swaybars you can find and good shocks with adjustable rebound and dampening. The reasoning behind this is simple. Street driving is anything but race track smooth so a racetrack suspension setup (super stiff springs and shocks) just won't work as well or perform like it should on that type of surface.

I'm sure most of you have experienced the feeling of your car getting unsettled when hitting bumps especially in a corner, causing it to hop and bounce if you're running a really stiff setup. This is because the super stiff springs don't let the suspension soak up the bumps and maintain contact with the road over the bumps. When you switch to softer springs it allows the suspension to move the way it was designed over bumps in the road and maintain contact at all times giving you maximum grip.

As was pointed out by Targa250R soft springs are more likely to exaggerate body roll and limit handling but that's where the big sway bars come in. Swaybars more than any other suspension component directly controls body roll with no effect on a cars ride quality, allowing it to handle very well. Adding good quality adjustable dampeners/shocks/struts helps to control the movement of the suspension to custom tailor the ride to the driver's needs and what the main surface they're driving on requires.

So as you can see, suspension setup is indeed a complicated science, and that's why more people tend to get it wrong, than right. Education = making the right choices.

92CivicLSI

So do you think that the H&R Sports would do ok? rate wise? ride wise?

00Red_SiR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 92CivicLSI &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So do you think that the H&R Sports would do ok? rate wise? ride wise? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes I think so, they are a high quality, well engineered spring that I think you'll be much happier with vs coil overs IMO. Just remember to upgrade your swaybars and bushings to polyurethane to really increase your cars handling ability later on. Just try to stay around a 1.5" - 1.75" drop max for the best compromise between ride, handling and looks.

92CivicLSI

Thanks 00Red_SiR.

n1div

Your RSR spring rates aren't that stiff. Mine are 350f/250r and are above those on the RSR. I would check your shocks for fluid leak and also when you hit a bump, does the car seem to settle right away or does it wander?

I also have a BMW and Subaru and when it comes to spring rates for the street, it seems that most of the Honda guys are running underdampened setups a lot(meaning high spring rate, low dampening rate) while Subaru guys tend to be the opposite. Just an observation.

I don't think any one combination is the holy grail and generalizations shouldn't be made. It's good to learn from theory but ultimately, it will be on your driving style and situation.

For me, I know I can get away with softer spring rates on my BMW and Subaru because they have a stiffer and well balanced chassis that helps the car in handling where as my Civic needs to have a bit stiffer setup since the chassis isn't as rigid and refined, imo. BTW, all my setups have aftermarket f/r swaybars on them.

H&R sports will be around 230lb/in F / ~130lb/in R which is softer than your current RSR race springs. The only thing I didn't like with my H&R sports was that my front was a bit lower than the rear after my engine swap on my VX model civic.

Just my $.02

92CivicLSI

You make some very good points on the last message. I found out that the problem I had with the RSR Springs. They were Linear and not Progresive. There is nothing like good research to be made when purchasing.
As for with the swap (B18B)I decided to go with Integra springs instead of Civic for the weight issue.
I should have them in the car next weekend, will advise then...........
Thanks to everyones great advice and info..............peace

n1div

If you are going with normal Integra springs and not coilovers, your drop will obviously vary and might not be what you want. Just a thought... This was one of the reasons why I got Integra rates on coilovers so I can still get a good spring rate but compensate for the height differences since the entire car itself will still be lighter than an Integra, even with the B swap.

Also, linear and progressive doesn't effect your bouncy ride. Once again, it is mating the right spring rate to the correct dampening. Most non-coilover springs that I've seen generally have linear for the fronts and progressives in the back. I've rarely seen progressives on the front for Honda models.