Funanin

ok fellas, I have a 95 ex auto, which I am puttin a greddy kit on with low boost because im in a wheelchair and have to drive with hand controls, so I just wanted something with a little extra kick.

my buddy on the other hand has the same car but his is 5 speed, so we wanted to do something different with his than just the old turbo kit or a jdm swap. We are both muscle car guys and dont really have extensive knowledge in the whole honda scene. Basically we want to build a motor that is a high powered NA motor but we dont really know where to start. Like what will fit easily, and wont cost a fortune to build. I have heard all the terms before like "mini-me" and "frankenstein", but cant remember what all of them are/mean. So basically what motor should I pick to start with? D16? B16? or the larger 18's or even 22? What is realistic and would be relatively cheap to build ourselves and would have nice output for the street scene? Basically just enough maybe a little more power to keep up with my 7 psi or so turbo'd D16? Say 180 or so hp?

bpkmrtoes

it really depends on your budget. there are stock honda motors out there that are easy to swap and will keep up with your turbo single if your only thinking about 180hp.

these prices may vary depending on how you bought the motor. these prices are generally are just long block and tranny with doing your own labor.
b16a/2/3 from jdm sir, 99-00 civic si, or del sol vtecs will run you about 2 grand.
b18b1 from an ls from integras will run you about 1-1.5 grand.
b18c/1 from integra gsr will run you about 2.5-3 grand.
b18c/5 from integra type r will run you about 4-5 grand.
b16b from the civic type r's is strictly jdm only
will cost just as much an integra type r swap

all these motors will be straight swap in with the correct stock parts and stock mounts.

a mini-me is a Frankenstein. a frankenstein is mix and matching main engine components.
i.e.:
mini-me: single cam non vtec bottom with vtec head.
ls/v: ls non vtec bottom block with vtec head.

best ones to keep up/take your build would be the gs-r or type r motor.

Dasfinc

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bpkmrtoes &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">it really depends on your budget. there are stock honda motors out there that are easy to swap and will keep up with your turbo single if your only thinking about 180hp.

these prices may vary depending on how you bought the motor. these prices are generally are just long block and tranny with doing your own labor.
b16a/2/3 from jdm sir, 99-00 civic si, or del sol vtecs will run you about 2 grand.
b18b1 from an ls from integras will run you about 1-1.5 grand.
b18c/1 from integra gsr will run you about 2.5-3 grand.
b18c/5 from integra type r will run you about 4-5 grand.
b16b from the civic type r's is strictly jdm only
will cost just as much an integra type r swap

all these motors will be straight swap in with the correct stock parts and stock mounts.

a mini-me is a Frankenstein. a frankenstein is mix and matching main engine components.
i.e.:
mini-me: single cam non vtec bottom with vtec head.
ls/v: ls non vtec bottom block with vtec head.

best ones to keep up/take your build would be the gs-r or type r motor.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

My LS swap only cost me $700, I dunno where you are pulling $1500 from.

I'd tell your buddy to get an LS swap, it may only have 142hp at the motor, but it has a good amount of torque, readily available, and with all due respect an automatic transmission will kill your power, you will probably only have 145-150 horsepower AT the wheels if that much, so a stock LS swap would keep up fairly well.

bpkmrtoes

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dasfinc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

My LS swap only cost me $700, I dunno where you are pulling $1500 from.

I'd tell your buddy to get an LS swap, it may only have 142hp at the motor, but it has a good amount of torque, readily available, and with all due respect an automatic transmission will kill your power, you will probably only have 145-150 horsepower AT the wheels if that much, so a stock LS swap would keep up fairly well.</TD></TR></TABLE>

please. this is just an average for a newer dc/db Ls. maybe the swap needs new axles? maybe it didnt come with a distributor. hell, a lot of swaps don't even come with the correct ecu needed. of course you would want to change timing belt and water pump. might as well change out the clutch and get the flywheel resurfaced while it's out. new t-stat, coolant, motor oil, oil filter, tranny fluid, new top hose. he is going to need b-series shift linkage, tbracket, the mounts. **** adds up so don't just single yourself out and think everyone can get one for 700. of course if you shop around you could get better deals, these were just general prices.

JDM Knight Star

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dasfinc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

My LS swap only cost me $700, I dunno where you are pulling $1500 from.

I'd tell your buddy to get an LS swap, it may only have 142hp at the motor, but it has a good amount of torque, readily available, and with all due respect an automatic transmission will kill your power, you will probably only have 145-150 horsepower AT the wheels if that much, so a stock LS swap would keep up fairly well.</TD></TR></TABLE>

LS complete swap over with warranty at the cheapest shop I know is about $1500 which includes axles, wiring, ECU, Plug and Play everything. Sure you can get a swap for $700 but it would be missing everything you need to bolt it into a civic. Only way to get it for that cheap and have it be plug and play is you score a really good deal on craigslist or you stole it.

B serious

iTrader: (1)

Since you come from muscle cars, you know that the key to NA is that there is no replacement for displacement.

Use this principle.

If you want high power, you can choose to either go the big motor low cash route:

H22. (195-220hp and around $2200-3500 for the swap alone)

The smaller motor, higher potential, but higher cost route:

K20A2 or K20A (200-220HP $4-6k for the swap alone)

The small motor medium cost medium output higher potential route:

B18C1(170-180 HP $2700-3200) B18C5(195-200HP $4K - 4500)

The big motor high cost high potential medium initial ouput route:

K24(Vtec). (200HP $4kish)

All of these engines will have up and down sides. The H22 is cheap as hell and fast out of the box...but with little potential afterwards. It requires special mounts and shift linkage mods.

The K20A/2 is expensive but has A SHITLOAD of potential, an awesome 6sp trans....and is difficult to swap in.

The B18C1's trans sucks. The B18C5 is a little expensive but AWESOME. They are direct swaps, but B series technolgy, albeit tried and true is a little old. These engines still have very good potential, though.

The K24 is a little hard to find, the hardest of the above options to swap in, but again...no replacement for displacement. With the right tweaks, this can be a monster.

Good luck.

Dasfinc

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDM Knight Star &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

LS complete swap over with warranty at the cheapest shop I know is about $1500 which includes axles, wiring, ECU, Plug and Play everything. Sure you can get a swap for $700 but it would be missing everything you need to bolt it into a civic. Only way to get it for that cheap and have it be plug and play is you score a really good deal on craigslist or you stole it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't think you get it, its not that 'you can' get it for $700, I'm saying I did, and its not hard...

Here, I'll make some average prices:

Full B18B1 long block - There's one I went and saw in chicago for sale right now for $300, in good shape, but I passed on it because I was looking for the trans, not the motor. I got mine for $275 with axles and midshaft
LS trans - $250-300, I paid $330 shipped for a full LS trans with clutch and flywheel
Shift linkage - $100 brand new from Honda, $50-60 used from a yard
PR4/P75 ECU - $50

People are practically dumping B18B1/A1's, and there is a big difference between spending sub $1000 for that swap which has huge potential for boost and aftermarket, or spending 2K+ on a B18C or H22


Also, 99% of the time, places/shops that sell 'complete swaps' for $1500 will not warranty them fully unless they install them, which would set you back another $500-1000.

This is just my opinion, so no need to reply to it, just basically stating that a B18B swap is very cost efficient.

I'm personally boosting mine, and plan to hit about 265-275WHP with stock internals, with probably 8-10PSI. A pieced together turbo kit can be had for $500-600, so for $1400 you can lay out quite a bit more power than any NA swap.

As far as NA swaps go though, I vote H22.

Funanin

cool thanks guys

mercutio_07

H22 gear ratio is horrible IMO, I would go H2B if trying to stay NA.
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread/1998426
Friend of mine had an H2B in his 94 hatch. With stock internals it was dynoed at 181whp and 168tq, and ran 13.0 in the 1/4.

bsk211105

Hey, I'm his friend who has the 93 ex 5-speed. I'm seriously looking into a b16. If i do decide to go this route what exactly needs to be changed over? I know that the ecu and harness do, but will i have to change the motor/tranny mounts? Also the cv axles... will the d16 axles fit the b16 trans?
will the throttle linkage i have work? any other things i may not have thought about would be appreciated too.

Dasfinc

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bsk211105 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hey, I'm his friend who has the 93 ex 5-speed. I'm seriously looking into a b16. If i do decide to go this route what exactly needs to be changed over? I know that the ecu and harness do, but will i have to change the motor/tranny mounts? Also the cv axles... will the d16 axles fit the b16 trans?
will the throttle linkage i have work? any other things i may not have thought about would be appreciated too.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You have to use all the mounts, brackets, axles, and transmission, off of the B16 donor car.

bsk211105

I was talking to a friend of mine that did a b16 swap in his car, and he said the axles will fit a b16 trans, as well as the wiring harness... I'm not too sure that he knows what he is talking about though. Most swaps come with engine, trans, ecu, and all accessories from what i can see. Will the 93 ex wiring harness work on a b series motor?

WhiteNess

yes, the 93 EX harness will work on a b16 motor, but you may need to splice a few sensors plugs (Depending on what year b16 your get). If you get an OBD 2 b16 motor, you will need to splice into the harness obd 2 clips for injectors, alterator, distributor, and IAT (intake air temp sensor). That however is the simple answer. You can also use your uncut 93 harness and just get an obd 1 alternator, injectors, and dizzy. Honda just changed the styles of plugs used on the obd 2 cars.

Its really very simple, but to someone who isn't familiar with hondas you could get kinda lost in the simplicity of it...if that makes sense haha.

Also remeber this:

D-series parts are D-series parts
B-series parts are B-series parts

There are several parts which are interchangable, but not everything. Certian mounts will work on both motors, and wiring harnesses will work on both motors. But A/C brackets are not interchangable, nor is shift linkage and axles. But you have a great tool at ur hands here on Honda-tech. So learn how to use the search function. I can't tell u how many times i've gotten my computer greasy cause its 1am and I gotta search something stupid on here.

bryan110584

I'm not too sure of the search function that your talking about, this is bsk211105, but i forgot my password, and had to create a new account haha duh...

I plan to get a b16 a gen2, so i'm pretty sure from what your saying that the wiring harness will work just fine. The motors that im looking at come with all accessories such as alternator, starter, p/s pump, and a/c compressor. I think all the lines for the steering, and ac should work on the new accessories. Maybe my old accessories will even fit on the brackets on the new motor? Do you know exactly what mounts i'm going to need to do the swap? I'm going to be doing this one saturday at work, and it's my daily driver, so I want to have everything ready, and correct the first time around.

WhiteNess

Search Function: up at the top of the page it says "search" click it and figure out how people post things on here...might find the answers to some of ur problems.


Mounts:

Driverside......since u are swapping in a b16, most b16's come with a "two post" driver side bracket. If this is the case you should be able to use your d-series mount. Take a look at the mount u have in ur car...and the bracket on the motor ur gonna swap in and see if they look like they should fit each other. FYI integra b-series motors come with a "three post" driver side bracket. So in that instance you would use the integra mount. Pretty easy to figure out if you have the stuff layin in front of you.

Tranny....its the same for d and b series....at least for manual trannys

Rear....the mount is the same...the rear bracket needs to come off a b-series motor however, the d-series one will not fit the b-series motor.

Vibration mount....(front side of the tranny)...this also needs to come off of a b-series motor...it will bolt up to the tranny with 3 17mm bolts.

A/C bracket.....your car comes with whats refered to as a d-series compressor, your d-series compressor bracket will not bolt up to your b-series block. You need a b-series compressor bracket (p75,p30)...those two will allow 2 bolts to line up on the a/c compressor...I don't reccomend that for long term use though cause the bolts will break...you need a (p7j "crv" bracket....or a p54 "del sol" bracket) those two allow for a d-series compressor to bolt up to a b-series block with all 4 compressor bolts...FYI...from honda the p7j is half the price of the p54.

Axles....get the axles and half shaft from any b-series swap and they will work fine.

Computer...Since you've got an EX i think all of those come with p28 ecu's...if not get a p28 ecu. If you run the car on the alternative p06 that i think might be in your car possibly then you will not be able to utilize "VTEC" which would suck cause then u can't put any cool stickers on ur car haha jk. Seriously though, I would suggest getting the P28 remapped "chipped" for a b16 since these computers are ment for a d-series "smaller" motor. Some people on here will tell u to get some super fly jdm computer...but its really what ever you can get ur hands on cheapest honestly haha.

Shift linkage....get this off any b-series swap the d-series will not fit.

Radiator Hoses....I suggest to spend a lil $$$ while ur pickin up oil and coolent and get hoses for the the motor you got. If its a b16 tell them I need hoses for a 00 SI civic...if its for a GSR b18c1...tell them for a 00 GSR integra....or just get them when u get ur swap at the junk haha. Again whatever works.

I'm sure there are a few more things I forgot, but I think that if you understood half of what I said then you are more than 2x capable of doing this swap. Its not hard, just make sure you connect all your grounds (especially the one on the thermostat housing grrrrrrrrrrrr)...and u will be fine. Oh yea...when you get to the bitch pin (pin that holds shift linkage in)....don't give up till its out haha and you can use one of the bolts from the ac compressor to bang the SOB out.

Since this is your first swap it might take ya all day...once u get it down it will take like 2-3 hrs.


Modified by WhiteNess at 11:36 PM 5/6/2008

bryan110584

Well I work on gm's, and i do engine swaps on busted pos motors at work, so it's not really my first engine, although i've never really changed engine types in a car. And i've never had a motor outa a honda yet. Yeah I think I'll be alright. Do you have a preference on how to take the engine out? From top, or drop the subframe on a table, and lift the car of the whole front?

I'm not too worried about the a/c but will the p/s pump and alternator work from a d series?

WhiteNess

The power steering .....honestly...i dunno haha my car doesn't have PS and none of my friends cars do either. I think that the PS hose is too short. Someone on here should know for sure.

Alternator....the simple answer is NO...you gotta use a b-series alternator...but i think they make aftermarket mounts so you can use a d-series one. They have the same output...the bseries is just a lil larger is all.

I like to go from the top....there is no need to drop the subframe on a civic to pull the motor...well at least yours. I like to leave the rear braket on the motor...and have the driver side and tranny mounts on the ground....line up the rear bracket....then lower the motor into place and attatch the ds and tranny mounts.

bryan110584

Ok cool, thanks for all the help man, you really seemed to be able to answer all my questions... you da man haha
'

So not to be an annoyance, but what if i were to do a b18c instead of b16? It's all the same besides the computer, and diff. axels right? That is if the motor comes with trans, alternator, and accessories...

WhiteNess

Well a B18C is a jdm motor

A B18C1 is a usdm GSR integra motor
A B18C5 is a usdm typeR integra motor

The GSR is the most commen of all 3. For a GSR you will need an OBD1 or OBD 2 GSR harness. And a P72 computer. The GSR harness contains an additional 2 plugs that control the secondary butterflies in the Intake manifold. The P72 ecu is also needed for this.

Now there are a few options that you can take to bypass all that, but that would be alot of writing haha.

And the Axles are the same for all b-series motors....the only difference for the b18c1/5 is the 3 post driverside bracket as opposed to the 2 post style bracket.

It can be a lil hard to explain all this in terms of "this works only one way all the time". There are so many options availiable to make what you have work with what you've got. You just need to familarize yourself with the parts that are needed and what car they come off of, and what will fit where.

bryan110584

Ok... So b16a it is hahaha cheaper anyway. Thanks alot for all the advice man, i'll let ya know how it turns out when i do it... Probably in a month or so.

bryan110584

One last thing that i didn't think of... The exhaust... Do i need to change anything for a b16?

WhiteNess

wellll....your stock exaust will be a lil restrictive....but it will fit fine.....worst case senario you might have to get the flange on the cat cut and repositioned to fit the b16 header. But it should fit fine.

bsk211105

Alrite Guys, I wasted alot of your time with this whole swap thread... i copped out. However I did buy a nitrous system. My ? for you is how much nitrous is safe in a 100% stock d16z motor? I have re-built the head within the last year or so, using new head bolts(honda) of course... I am hearing mixed opionions... I'm hearing any n2o will streatch stock head bolts and warp the head, and im also hearing that i can throw a 75 shot at this thing without a problem... I have a venom vcn-2000 kit. This kit is all computerized. I can control the time of spray, how large of a shot, and when it sprays i.e. throttle position, and rpm. The system is a dry shot, which has a harness going to each injector to pulse them longer to richen up the mixture... it taps into the tp sensor, distributor, and the o2 sensor. The system is made to shut down automaticly if it senses a lean condition Im running sunoco 93 octane in it. I have sprayed it with approx. a 50 shot probably like 20 times already... only from 4.5k to about 7k then shift and do it all over again haha

Hanmin

there should be a nitrous oxide subforum, try there, you will most likely get a better response.

bsk211105

k thanks