eJone powereD

This post is somewhat of a 3-part question, so I apologize for such a long read. I'm desperate at this point.

I've done extensive research and still can't find any definitive answers. I've been having problems with 1) a low idle; 2) ignition timing being off and refusing to be corrected; and 3) believe that is why my car fails California smog every two years. But when it does pass, it's barely just under the maximum allowed limits of HC, CO, and NOx.

Car/Motor: 1995 Honda Civic EX Coupe with original D16Z6 engine. As of today, it has just under 160k miles. Motor has pretty much always been stock except for AEM short ram intake and an Edelbrock CARB legal header (2009) and DC Sports Stainless one piece CARB legal header (2013)

Last year in September, the car had 149k miles. I cleaned the motor and replaced a bunch of parts on the engine with new OEM Honda parts ranging from all belts including timing belt and tensioner, water pump, thermostat, intake and throttle body gaskets, all new oil seals/gaskets, brand new OEM IACV and FITV, distributor, spark plugs, cleaned out all the gunk from inside throttle body and intake manifold, etc.

I think the only thing I didn't do was replace the alternator and head gasket, which still seem good to me. No leaks nor overheating coming from headgasket.

Fuel filter was replaced back in 2008 with 117k on motor, but failed the following year (2009) after 7k miles. I will have to replace that though since it has been 50k miles since replacing it.

I seafoamed the car in 2006, and a ton of smoke was expelled out of the motor. I seafoamed the car again just today (12/24/13) and not as much smoke was expelled out of the motor.

I have only had the check engine light turn on on me once, which was a faulty original O2 Sensor, that I replaced with an OEM O2 sensor back in 2005.
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First problem is my low idle. Other than assuming that my brake booster may be bad and the only possible vacuum leak, I cannot find any other vacuum leaks nor exhaust leaks. When the car is fully warmed up, the idle sits around 500 rpm when it should be around 750 rpm. Adjusting the idle any higher and the idle will begin to jump up and down at idle. Stepping on the brakes will slightly drop the idle lower from 500 rpm. Even sometimes at idle without stepping on the brakes and no accessories on, the idle will be right above zero, but the engine doesn't die nor shake violently.

Here's a picture of the idle right after I cleaned/replaced all those parts listed above in September of last year, it's right above zero! Car is warmed up here, not stepping on brakes, engine doesn't die nor shake, coolant is bled thoroughly, brand new oem IACV and FITV. Doesn't matter if it's day or night, hot or cold. It will idle this low when it wants to. What is causing such a low idle, yet the motor sounds/feels like it's idling normally?



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Second problem. My ignition timing just doesn't seem to get set correctly. I did replace the distributor last year in September when the previous one crapped out on me, as well as new spark plugs.

My distributor has to be set at fully advanced (pushed all the way towards firewall) in order to get anywhere near the timing mark to the right of the red 16 degree BTDC mark. I've checked the mechanical timing countless times. Crank is at TDC, Cam Gear is at TDC, Timing belt is tensioned properly, and yet my ignition timing is off. I've jumped the 2-pin connector near the ecu and used a timing light every single time and still can't get it right.

Here is a picture of my crank pulley with timing marks labeled. Car is running in this pic, fully warmed up, 2-pin connector jumped, and using timing light. This is as close as I can get the pointer to the timing marks.


And here is a pic of my distributor. It has to be fully advanced just to get as close to those 3 timing marks as possible like in the picture right above. If I retard the distributor any, the pointer on the timing cover will start to read towards the white TDC mark and sit right in between TDC and the timing mark to the right of 16 degrees BTDC. Why is it like this?



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Third and final problem. I've been absolutely clueless as to why my car keeps failing smog every two years, but when it does pass, it barely does. I'm sure my low idle and ignition timing being off has to do with my car failing smog, but WHY?

I want to know WHY my catalytic converters keep going bad every two years for smog(approximately 16,000-20,000 miles driven within those two years) instead of having to replace the damn thing every two years.

Anyways, here's a timeline/pictures of smog tests of this car

-October 2004-

Smog done by previous owner before I bought the car. Bone stock motor. 86k miles


-December 2005-

Stock motor except for AEM Intake. New OEM O2 sensor after CEL for bad O2 sensor came on 2 months prior to this smog test, hence lower readings than 2004 test. 98k miles


-December 2007-

Still stock motor except for AEM Intake. 113k miles


-December 2009-

Fuel filter was replaced in 2008 at 117k miles. Car at time of 2009 smog had 124k miles. Mods to engine were only AEM Intake and Edelbrock CARB legal header for the first 3 failed straight smog tests. 4th smog test it barely passed with stock intake and stock header.

- 1st test; AEM intake and Edelbrock header, original catalytic converter. Was told engine is running lean and to replace O2 sensor even though I had no check engine light.


- 2nd test; AEM intake and Edelbrock header, with new OEM O2 sensor, car failed damn near everything. Was told to replace catalytic converter.


- 3rd test; AEM intake and Edlebrock header, with new O2 sensor and new California legal catalytic converter, car still failed damn near everything.


- 4th test; bone stock motor, put the stock intake and header back on, I retard timing two degrees, run a bottle of CRC guaranteed to pass with a full tank of 91 premium gas to nearly empty, re-fueled car, car BARELY passed.


-December 2011-

I kept the engine bone stock from the last smog test in 2009 with stock intake and header still on as well. 142k miles

1st test; failed everything AGAIN! Was told to get ANOTHER new catalytic converter. Went to get one, and the catalytic converter was completely gutted. What the hell caused this cat to go out in two years and 17k miles??


2nd test: Car passed pretty damn clean. I was shocked to see a zero up there. But still, what would cause the catalytic converter to go bad???


-December 2013-

The car is back at it, failing that 15mph smog test again. AEM intake and this time a DC Sports stainless one piece CARB legal header. 159k miles


Intermittent low idle at times and unable to adjust the ignition timing correctly, this car still won't pass smog. The low idle and ignition timing being a bitch is leading me to believe there is something else going on and causing my previous catalytic converter (as well as my current one) to go possibly bad and for my car to fail smog.

I'm assuming my car is still running lean? I'm also assuming a vacuum leak in my brake booster, but nowhere else.

Anybody have any clues at all as to what the hell is going on with this thing? I have two weeks to re-smog and renew my registration by January 8th and I've given up. I haven't touched this car in two weeks since being smogged.

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

Where did you get the distributor, and do you remember what brand it is?

With all electronics turned off, car in neutral, foot off brake, where does your car idle? Is there a noticeable drop in idle if you turn on all electronics? High beams, foot on brake, radio on, heater on.

eJone powereD

I had a shop buy and install the distributor because I didnt have time to diagnose the bad distributor at the time. Unsure of the brand but I will try to find out.

With all electronics turned off, car in neutral, and foot off brake, the car fully warmed up, it will idle around 500 rpm. But even sometimes with that stuff turned off, it will idle right above zero.

The only time I see a noticeable drop in idle is when I step on the brakes. If I pump the brakes with the car running and let go of the pedal, the idle will drop considerably low to around 300 rpm, sometimes even down to right above zero.

No noticeable drop in idle when i turn on high beams, radio, interior lighting, etc. With the heater on, the car seems to idle normally where it should, around 750 rpm. And when using the power windows, the idle will rise a bit.

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

So your alternator is working correctly - that's good, at least. It does sound like you have a minor leak in your brake booster. I'm at work and don't have an FSM in front of me, but you can download one and look up the procedure for vacuum testing it...or you can just replace it. I would diagnose it first, though - it's possible you just have a leaking check valve, which is a $5 part, vs a new brake booster that will run you a good bit more than that.

The distributor is a bit worrisome, though. Cheap, knockoff distributors rarely last, and rarely get properly "in time". The FSM does require that your car be idling properly before replacing it, though, so your idle problems might have something to do with your ignition timing being off.

Long story short, start off diagnosing and replacing the brake booster, then see if you can convince your car to idle properly, then try resetting the timing. The wonky idle and timing could be why you're failing, though. While you're doing all of the other fun stuff, do a compression test just for kicks and giggles. That might turn up something else for you.

HondaPartsHero

Have you tried adjusting the idle according to the FSM

http://s267.photobucket.com/user/Ron..._3365.jpg.html

carlos8

Do you use a standard timing light or a degree Adjustable one?

I've seen a lot of people confuse with them!!

eJone powereD

I tested the brake booster and it does seem to have symptoms of being bad. I may have to re-test it again though a couple more times just to make sure. I also tested the check valve it does seem to be good still.

I'll also try a compression test to see if I find anything unusual. Thanks a lot for your help.

I haven't tried adjusting the idle screw on the throttle body. It's always had this clay/rubber substance covering the screw so it's never been touched and always thought that I wouldn't have to adjust it if it idled fine before. I'll try it though.

I'm using a standard timing light. It shouldn't matter if I use a standard or adjustable timing light though right?


I jumped the 2-pin connector again to check on the ignition timing and noticed that the CEL started flashing. The CEL wasn't on, but it started flashing as soon as I jumped the connector. I thought I had found something that may be the culprit, but the CEL came out to be a code 17, which is the Vehicle Speed Sensor, so nothing really there...

Also, I found some numbers on the distributor...DST 17404...and googled that number. Google search came up with a WAI World Power Systems Distributor as the brand...

eJone powereD

nobody else has any clues?

I tested the brake booster and booster check valve again just right now. Everything seems to check out fine. Sprayed around the intake manifold, around the brake booster, and any/all vacuum hoses again as well with carb cleaner, still no vacuum leak to be found.

I'm starting to think that it could be the fuel filter, fuel pressure regulator, fuel rail, or fuel injectors. I could understand that any of those being faulty could cause a low idle and my car to run lean, but would any of those going bad cause my ignition timing to be off?

HondaPartsHero

How did you adjust the idle then? I hope you didn't adjust the stop screw because that's going to be an issue right there. Adjust it according to the link I provided and if you did adjust the stop screw you're going to have to set that back to factory, it should NEVER be touched except in a few circumstances and this is not one of them.

rpfn140378

Last week I had an issue with my IACV and I sorted it with a good clean. My civic is now around 65 000 miles. Your IACV is quite new but can be faulty, god knows, I would give a try and clean it.

edwinie26

looks like somthing happened between 2005-2007 everything started to go to crap after that

1) if the timing belt was replaced are the cam and crank aligned properly

2) *YOU SAID YOU ALREADY JUMPED THE PIN..disregard this*
you really dont change anything if you rotate the distrubutor ecu will correct it.. you have to create for lack of the actual term, a "short" or brigde on a cable for the ecu to stop it from correcting it then you adjust. after that then you can remove the "short"/bridge.
there are two cables near the ecu i think its under the dash. you have to short/bridge one of them i forget which one.

3) ive also heard of something being installed 180degrees off in a conversation i had once im not sure if its the camshaft (actual cam gear was installed 180 degress off)

95Sedan

don't your throttle body have an idle adjuster screw on it? turn or manually set the idle?

how is the timing? did you put it in like 4th and floor it hear if the spark is jumping? maybe the eaither set it to rich or to lean.

up the idle and re adjust timing by rotating the dizzy

IF IT IS ALL THE WAY ADVANCED BELIEVE ME YOUR NOT BURNING THE FUEL AND PRE-MATURELY MISSFIRING SPARK, YOU HAVE TO PROPERLY SET TIMING, UP THE IDLE MANUALLY AND ADJUST TIMING THEN ADJUST IDLE AGAIN


are you sure you plugged the IACV in? no cracked wires? any check engine lights?

eJone powereD

Been busy with work, so I haven't adjusted the idle at all yet. I'll do it this weekend though. And my bad, I meant the idle adjust screw, not the throttle stop screw.

I doubt it would get that dirty in 10k miles, but I'll check on it.

1) Yes, crank and cam gear are aligned properly. Both are at TDC and I've checked it at least 20 times. That's what's bothering me about the ignition timing being off.

2) Are you talking about the 2-pin connector hanging by the ecu? If so, then yes, every time I've tried to set ignition timing, I've created that "bridge/short" that you speak of. I've never tried to adjust the ignition timing without creating that "bridge/short". What I can't figure out is that the distributor has to be advanced as far as it can go in order to get anywhere close to 14 degrees BTDC. If I retard the dizzy any, the pointer on the timing belt cover starts to read in between the 14 degrees BTDC mark and TDC mark on the crank pulley.

3) I've never removed the cam gear or cam shaft so everything is good there.

Ignition timing or Mechanical timing? Mechanical timing is spot on. Crank and cam gear are spot on TDC. Ignition timing is so off but the car seems to run normal for some reason. Haven't put the car in 4th gear and floored it to hear if the spark is jumping.

I will adjust the idle this weekend, re-adjust ignition timing, and then re-adjust the idle. It just boggles my mind that the dizzy has to be advanced all the way just to get anywhere near 14 degrees btdc.

IACV is plugged in. I had the motor out of the car at the time I replaced it. No cracked wires. No check engine light is showing up, other than a code 17, which is for Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS).

95Sedan

no just adjust dizzy, being all the way advanced will make it run like ****. spark firing early.

eJone powereD

Oh, yeah I know the dizzy shouldn't be all the way advanced. It's just tripping me out that I have to advance it all the way just to get anywhere near the 14 degree mark on the crank pulley lol.

belairbrian

Are you relying on the dash tach or using an inductive tach under the hood? makes no sense that idle can drop to near 0 with no adverse affects.

Plug the hose to the brake booster and eliminate that from the equation.

When did the idle problems start? Right after the dizzie replacement?

eJone powereD

I'm relying on the dash tach.

Plugged the hose to the brake booster and the brake booster is working fine.

The idle problems started before the dizzy replacement.

A small update...

Pulled the O2 sensor and it was completely black, covered in black soot. My O2 sensors never looked like that. Ended up replacing it with a brand new one ( 4-wire Denso) and the idle seems to be much better now. Had it pre-tested at the smog shop and now it's only failing HC on both 15mph and 25mph. They're telling me I need a new cat, but the catalytic converter on my car at the moment is only two years old (approx. 20k miles) and it's a California legal catalytic converter. If indeed the cat is bad, then what the hell is causing it and/or the O2 sensor to go bad?

Haven't had time to do a compression check on this piece of ****, been stressing with OT at work, but I've completely given up on this car. I'm just about to drop another $600 on a new cat and sell it right after.

B20Verified

I had a similar problem with low idle and misfortune in setting base timing.
I purchased an ebay dizzy after having CODE 9(knowing it would be not as good as oem) after i received the dizzy in the mail i threw an oem GSR coil inside and saw incredible results. My timing wont adjust to any higher than 13*BTDC. factory spec being slightly more advanced, at 16*. i found that setting my timing has helped my b20v with finding the extra torque in the lower end and still have loads of power to 8k. i would love to set timing to 16 but i just cant, the dizzy is maxed out in its track(all the way toward the radiator support.

One way to check integrity of your IACV is to unplug it while the engine is running. IF THERE IS NO NOTICEABLE CHANGE in engine speed then you have a faulty IACV.

High HC in your exhaust is a direct sign of a misfire, indicating unburnt fuel leaving the cylinder. do i remember you saying your 02 sensor was completely carboned up? do you have a misfire code? or did you ever? driving for extended periods of time with a misfire can leave carbon deposits in the 02 sensor and and cat, and cause failures.

Have you made any new discoveries yet?

TomCat39

Also if your O2 sensor is totally fouled like that chances are your spark plugs are the same causing even more misfires and who knows what else.

edwinie26

O2 sensor is probably like that because of bad timing or like stated above fuel not be ing properly burned..man if your distributor and sparkplugs are good.. and your gears are aligned. hmmmm....
No ecu codes right?

Might sound basic and stupid but are your spark plug wires put on the respective cylinders and distributor cap? Dont think that would affect timing though....
Just a thought that came up.

If your going to spend 600 on a cat id rather invest it on a Long block just about the same price
Ill make sure My Cousin doesnt buy your car if you el sell it just saying lol