Honda Civic / Del Sol (1992 - 2000) EG/EH/EJ/EK/EM1 Discussion

HELP! D16Y8 running rough...tach going crazy...

 
Old 09-28-2004, 05:50 PM
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Default HELP! D16Y8 running rough...tach going crazy...

WARNING - this is long- sorry. please bear with me as i extremely appreciate any help/suggestions i can get. here is the deal...

the engine was not run at all for about 10 months. the first startup was a few days ago but was fine. eveything was good- no leaks, nothing abnormal, NO CHECK ENGINE LIGHT. after i went through the procedure for adding new coolant and all that, i let the engine warm up to operating temp (fan came on multiple times) and went to rev it up a bit. here is where the probem is....

at idle, it is fine. up to about 3K it is fine. around 3500-4500 rpm the engine sort of cuts out and almost backfires now and then. while the engine bogs like this, the tach jumps all around- it is smooth up to about 4K, then when the engine goes rough the needle jumps up to 5K or a little further, then down to 3K, then twitches some more. i really couldn't find a certain pattern to it- it just seems to jump around randomly. BUT, it only does it while the engine is reved up to where it is bogging. anywhere below that, including idle, is fine. the tach is normal....

here are the specs of the engine:
d16y8
original block and head- 70,345 miles
stock internals and valvetrain
stock cat
NEW timing belt (honda)
NEW distributor rotor and cap (oem)
NEW spark plugs- NGK ZFR5F-11 (factory spec)
NEW fuel filter (oem)
NEW battery
all new fluids (royal purple 10W30 in engine, with k&n filter)

aftermarket parts:
aem cai (filter not new, but clean)
dc 4-1 ceramic header (NEW)
apexi n1 catback (with silencer)

at first i though it might be the timing (i'm waiting on a timing gun).
however, i moved the distributor both ways (full advance and full retard) and numerous places in between, and the bogging/cutting out/tach problem was not affected at all. i will still have it timed, but i think i ruled that out as the cause of the problem.

i also though my tach might be messed up, but i ruled that out too because i stuck in an si gauge cluster and that tach behaved in the exact same way.

also, i noticed quite a bit of water in the exhaust. so i pulled out the silencer and saw a little water gathered right at the tip of the muffler. i reved it up some, but it still seems to be spraying out a little water. not a whole lot, but more that i'm used to. i've seen mufflers drip a little water now and then. could mine be putting out more water because it wasn't run in so long? the more i rev it up (only to about 4K remember) the more water mist seems to spray out. i'm hoping it will quit this...?

the only other thing i can think of is the injectors- i have never changed those. but the car runs at idle and low rpms fine, so i wouldn't think one or two would be partially plugged. i would think i would see that even in the low rpms...
i think the problem is more electrical anyway, because of the tach jumping around...

my last (and crazy) thought was that since i have the new header, along with the cai and catback, my fuel system should be upgraded to "match" those mods (bigger injectors, better fuel pump) i think is sounds stupid though, because i'm sure there are people out there running just i/h/e on their d16y8s and not having fuel problems..

that was all i could think of for now. another thing- i have not taken the car out on the road yet. it still needs brake fluid, inspection, etc. i don't think that matters though because its runs rough just sitting there, what difference would it make if it was being driven...

again, i really appreciate any help or suggestions, and likewise only reply if you can provide technical info, or want to bump this this thread. PLEASE DO NOT reply with anything thing like "why don't you just swap for a b-series?" or other unrelated crap that won't help me.

and remember, i am NOT thowing any CELs.

THANK YOU very much for any help. i would like to get this cleared up quickly!

*EDIT* - new battery


Modified by lj17 at 10:48 PM 9/28/2004
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Old 09-28-2004, 06:29 PM
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Default Re: HELP! D16Y8 running rough...tach going crazy... (lj17)

did u change your fuel filter? maybe its clogged or something. just a thought. that water coming from yoru exhuast is probably condensation. and i dnt think u need an upgraded fuel system if all u have is bolt ons.
i would try the fuel filter. oh and did u bleed the coolant system when u changed it?
good luck bro
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Old 09-28-2004, 06:38 PM
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hmmmmm
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Old 09-28-2004, 06:42 PM
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Default Re: HELP! D16Y8 running rough...tach going crazy... (vtekstorm)

yes i changed the fuel filter (see first post)

and i also bled the coolant when i changed it. according to the procedure in the oem shop manual.

i didn't think it was because of the bolt ons, but i've been thinking my head off trying to figure out why it is running rough. thanks
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Old 09-28-2004, 06:50 PM
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Default Re: HELP! D16Y8 running rough...tach going crazy... (lj17)

is it just the tach that goes crazy or does the engine rpms actually go crazy and the tach just reflects it?

grab a manual and run through the troubleshooting for it...
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Old 09-28-2004, 07:19 PM
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Default Re: HELP! D16Y8 running rough...tach going crazy... (imk)

well, its hard to tell, really. sometimes i will rev it up to about 5K, and it really won't be that choppy, but the tach still jumps around like crazy. even if it is reving up semi-smooth, the tach sometimes seems to be delayed, almost as if it isn't getting a signal for a brief moment, if that makes any sense. i'll try to descibe a typical rev-up-

rev engine up to about 4K- tach is nice and smooth
rev just past 4K - starts to get choppy, tach starts twitching
rev close to 5K - engine getting worse, sputtering, tach still around 4000-4500

less than a second later...

engine still bogging at 5K, tach jumps wildly up to and maybe past 5K, then shoots down 3000-3500, continues to hop around until you let off the gas and revs drop back down to 1000-3000
now at idle, everything is fine..

you may be right that the tach is just reflecting the rpms (like it should), but it honestly is really hard to tell, because when the engine gets rough, the tach just jumps around do much, it is hard to follow, if you can understand that.

i think my problem is more of why the engine is cutting out in the first place, and the tach is just a result of that. although it has me puzzled....
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Old 09-28-2004, 07:30 PM
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Default Re: HELP! D16Y8 running rough...tach going crazy... (lj17)

no check engine light either? i know that when vtec has a problem, the CEL will come out and it lowers the rev limiter to 5k... if you hit the rev limiter it bounces up and down off of it pretty wildly... does it seem like its hitting a rev limit?
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Old 09-28-2004, 07:43 PM
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Default Re: HELP! D16Y8 running rough...tach going crazy... (imk)

at first it acted like a rev limiter, but i thought it seemed too "sloppy" to be that. it just jumps around too randomly i think. and most of the time, it starts getting rough before 5k anyway. and finally, the check engine light is not on, so i guess it dosen't matter...?
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Old 09-28-2004, 10:59 PM
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Default Re: HELP! D16Y8 running rough...tach going crazy... (lj17)

sound like a bad coil or ignitor
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Old 09-29-2004, 12:18 AM
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Default Re: HELP! D16Y8 running rough...tach going crazy... (cascaritas)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by cascaritas &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">sound like a bad coil or ignitor </TD></TR></TABLE>

listen to the man. cap and rotor are new so ^^^ check this out.
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Old 09-29-2004, 03:16 AM
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Default Re: HELP! D16Y8 running rough...tach going crazy... (psileepR)

I know its might be a silly question....but are you SURE you gapped the plugs to OEM requirments? .043 or is it .43 ....dont feel like grabbin my gap thing...but its a 43 lol try new wires...you didnt list that you had new wires.
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Old 09-29-2004, 03:55 AM
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Default Re: HELP! D16Y8 running rough...tach going crazy...

hemm, worst comes to worst it may be oil pump
listen try this, put your car in gear and keep your handbrake up
slowly release the clutch untill your just about to stall but while your clutch still has a good grab of your engine, if you see your "oil" lamp on but the car hasnt stalled out, you my friend have a problem

same thing happend to my *** in terms of the engine reving, but not as agressive as your pointing out, drove up the street cooked the engine and now im getting a new one for free
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Old 09-29-2004, 06:21 AM
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Default Re: HELP! D16Y8 running rough...tach going crazy... (Shotman)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by cascaritas &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">sound like a bad coil or ignitor </TD></TR></TABLE>

i don't think it is the coil, and i will say why...

i also have an msd 6AL ignition, msd blaster ss coil, an msd dist. cap (for external coil) and a set of msd 8.5mm spark plug wires. at the first startup, i was using all of these components. but when it was running real bad, i thought for some reason it might be the msd ignition and related parts. so, i completely disconnected all of the msd parts (thats why i didn't list the msd parts before) and put the factory coil back in and put the oem plug wires back on (both with low mileage)

it didn't make any difference.

i'm not sure about the ignitor (what it is, where it is, etc.) but i assume when i was using the msd ignition and coil, i was bypassing the ignitor, like i was bypassing the factory coil, am i right? i am at class right now, so i can't look up what or where the ignitor is in my shop manual. i have heard of it, but don't have any experience with changing them or anything. at any rate, i don't think it is the coil, because the engine ran rough with both the internal factory coil and the external msd coil.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by murmur9 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know its might be a silly question....but are you SURE you gapped the plugs to OEM requirments? .043 or is it .43 ....dont feel like grabbin my gap thing...but its a 43 lol try new wires...you didnt list that you had new wires. </TD></TR></TABLE>

i will re-check the plugs when i get home today. and about new wires, i used both the oem wires and a set of msd wires and there didn't seem to be any difference when using either set. so, i think i can rule that out...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Shotman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hemm, worst comes to worst it may be oil pump
listen try this, put your car in gear and keep your handbrake up
slowly release the clutch untill your just about to stall but while your clutch still has a good grab of your engine, if you see your "oil" lamp on but the car hasnt stalled out, you my friend have a problem </TD></TR></TABLE>

i extremely doubt it is the oil pump. there seems to be adequate oil pressure throughout the rpm range (what i can rev to anyway). i have a mechanical oil pressure gauge. at warm idle, i have about 30 psi of oil pressure, and when i am running around 4-5K, i have around 70-75 psi. also, the gauge seems to be smooth too. what i mean is, when i rev it up, and it gets choppy, i didn't notice the oil pressure gauge jump around any, like it wasn't pumping enough oil. because of that, i don't think the problem is mechanical, it think it is more electrical...

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Old 09-29-2004, 06:36 AM
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Default Re: HELP! D16Y8 running rough...tach going crazy... (lj17)

have you checked the code on your ecu?
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Old 09-29-2004, 06:46 AM
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Default Re: HELP! D16Y8 running rough...tach going crazy...

oh i forgot, i disconnected both battery cables when i was changing the coil, etc. but, i am STILL NOT throwing a check engine light...

and i know the CEL 'works' (not burnt out or anything) because i jumped the service connecter when i was adjusting the placement of the distibutor (like you would if you would be timing it with a timing gun) i did this just to make sure nothing would get screwed up when i was adjusting the distributor. anyway, when i had the service connector jumped, the CEL came on, and when i took the jumper off, the CEL went out.

and just a quick question, sort of unrelated- when people say they "reset the ecu" do they mean they just disconnected the battery? or is there actually a special way to reset the ecu..?

and it may just be my imagination, but the rev problem seems to be getting a little better the more i run and rev the car. i have run the car 3 times, and the first time it seemed to be pretty bad, but i almost think the 2nd and 3rd runs were a little less choppy and rough. but i am probably just getting "used" to the problem...

the only reason i bring it up is because remember the engine was not run for about 10 months, which is a long time. is it just running rough because it wasn't run for so long? does it just need to be "broke in" again? it sounds a little stupid, because it wasn't rebuilt or anything; nothing was changed internally, and it is not leaking any fluids. again everything seems to be fine. it starts good and runs in low rpms fine (&lt;3000).

thanks for all the suggestions, and sorry for the long posts!
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Old 09-29-2004, 06:51 AM
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Default Re: HELP! D16Y8 running rough...tach going crazy... (opkjoblacsh)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by opkjoblacsh &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">have you checked the code on your ecu?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

the check engine light is not on, can i check the ecu anyway? if i can, i'll do it when i get home, but it dosen't make sense to me that i could, since the CEL is not on...
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Old 09-29-2004, 06:00 PM
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Default Re: HELP! D16Y8 running rough...tach going crazy... (lj17)

update:

i checked the plugs again today. all 4 are gapped to .043 in. exactly. after i checked them i ran the car again. i let it warm up to where the fan came on a few times, then slowly started to rev it up. it may just be my imagination again, but it seemed to be a little better. i could rev up to about 4500 rpm smoothly but then it got a little choppy. not as bad as before, but still not normal. the tach also stayed pretty calm. it still started hopping around whenever the engine started to cut out, but it mainly jumped around between 4500-5000 rpm, which is better than it was. but that is also where the engine was getting rough, so the tach is probably just reflecting the engine's rpm, like it should. it was hard to tell if it was or not before, since it was jumping around pretty crazy then.

when i do rev to the point where it starts to cut out, it seems to backfire a little more than it did. nothing real loud or major, but just a little pop or 2 when i have it reved up high. i also have my silencer removed for now, because i was getting quite a bit of water "mist" spraying out of the muffler (which that seem to be better now too, maybe it is slowely getting "cleared out") maybe thats why it was popping more.

please help with more suggestions if you can. this is a really wierd problem and it has me worried
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Old 09-29-2004, 06:36 PM
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Default Re: HELP! D16Y8 running rough...tach going crazy... (lj17)

hopefully i can pick up my timing gun tomorrow, although i don't think that will help fix my problem. but at least it will be in time...

bump...please ANY suggestions..
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Old 09-29-2004, 06:53 PM
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Default Re: HELP! D16Y8 running rough...tach going crazy... (lj17)

i still have a weird problem with my speedometer... it seems to go wacky... ill be going 50mph and the speedometer starts jumping around... drops to 20mph, back to 50mph... up to 140mph, down to 0, up to 50mph, down to 0, up to 50mph... etc... and after a few seconds it sits back at 50mph... now i KNOW my speed wasnt jumping around like that... i think i just got some electrical problems... its happened ever since i had my oil changed at the dealership... my cd player randomly turns off too, and turns back on...

thats what i get for having a honda dealership change my oil... but its only $15 and i get a free car wash
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Old 09-30-2004, 12:27 PM
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Default Re: HELP! D16Y8 running rough...tach going crazy... (inane)

um yeah, dealership service sucks. change your own oil next time
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Old 10-03-2004, 12:17 PM
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Default Re: HELP! D16Y8 running rough...tach going crazy... (lj17)

So what ended up being the problem.
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Old 10-03-2004, 06:28 PM
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Default Re: HELP! D16Y8 running rough...tach going crazy... (Nico)

still not fixed. i got my timing gun and it is now set dead on to factory spec. i think it might be a little better. it revs up smoothly to 4-5K, but there it still cuts out a 'misses'. still pops a little too (backfires), although i think now that it is in time that has gotton a little better. my newest thought is changing the pcv valve (haven't done it yet)

my warm idle is pretty high too (around 1000) i troubleshot the IACV, and it is okay, so i guess i will change the pcv valve next...?

any other ideas?
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Old 10-03-2004, 06:55 PM
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ecu related?
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Old 10-03-2004, 07:29 PM
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Default Re: (Dark_Civic)

how's the voltage to the ECU? could something in the wiring have gotten rusty or eaten by rodents while the car sat? stick a test probe on the main voltage wires leading to the ecu and monitor the voltage while the motor revs... the injectors will draw lots more current at higher rev's than at low ones, possible browning-out the computer. I doubt it would throw a code for that....
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Old 10-03-2004, 07:30 PM
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Default Re: (Dark_Civic)

you got an extra dizzy laying around. Kind of sounds like an ingitor. Possible coil burned itself out, can't energize at high rpms.
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