Handling : How to address it the right way?
12-10-2007, 02:48 PM
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Handling : How to address it the right way?
Current Specs : 95 Honda Civic Dx Coupe 5 speed, 109,000 miles..
Well my first step in this long project is to address the handling before I even touch anything with power on this car. I know right now I need to replace my front bushing I believe, they are causing my inside of my front tires to wear really quick and I need that replaced asap. Well this car is a true to life daily driver in the Chicagoland area. It will never see a track at all and it's for fun on my drives. I just want something that will handle better. Handling is always been number 1 on my list for upgrades so I will start with asking you guys as far as how to go about this and what are the key areas I need to hit. thanks in advance for any and all advice.
Well my first step in this long project is to address the handling before I even touch anything with power on this car. I know right now I need to replace my front bushing I believe, they are causing my inside of my front tires to wear really quick and I need that replaced asap. Well this car is a true to life daily driver in the Chicagoland area. It will never see a track at all and it's for fun on my drives. I just want something that will handle better. Handling is always been number 1 on my list for upgrades so I will start with asking you guys as far as how to go about this and what are the key areas I need to hit. thanks in advance for any and all advice.
12-10-2007, 03:19 PM
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Re: (lowfast)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jdmb16sir2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">X2 buy a full suspension, ES bushings, LCA's, and some sturt bars and call it a day.</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by lowfast »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Just buy full suspension. I'd start with coilovers and LCA's</TD></TR></TABLE>
boy u guys gave some helpful info?! whats a full suspension? and wtf are lca's gonna do? look fancy?
First thing i would start with is some sway bars. These will give u the most noticable difference. Then go a spring/shock combo. Since it wont see track a full coil-over setup may be overkill. If u have the cash and think u need that much adjustability, then go with the coilovers.
Full ES bushing will help to tighten things up, but be ready for a harsher ride.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by lowfast »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Just buy full suspension. I'd start with coilovers and LCA's</TD></TR></TABLE>
boy u guys gave some helpful info?! whats a full suspension? and wtf are lca's gonna do? look fancy?
First thing i would start with is some sway bars. These will give u the most noticable difference. Then go a spring/shock combo. Since it wont see track a full coil-over setup may be overkill. If u have the cash and think u need that much adjustability, then go with the coilovers.
Full ES bushing will help to tighten things up, but be ready for a harsher ride.
12-10-2007, 03:20 PM
#5
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Re: Handling : How to address it the right way? (BRealtoYourself)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BRealtoYourself »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> It will never see a track at all and it's for fun on my drives. </TD></TR></TABLE>
if your car will never see track, then i'd suggest you dont get full suspension. get a set of Koni's + Ground Controls.
honestly, LCA's wont do much. they're pretty much there for bling bling factor.
set of sways would be good.
if your car will never see track, then i'd suggest you dont get full suspension. get a set of Koni's + Ground Controls.
honestly, LCA's wont do much. they're pretty much there for bling bling factor.
set of sways would be good.
12-10-2007, 03:22 PM
#6
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Re: Handling : How to address it the right way? (diLLy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by diLLy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
if your car will never see track, then i'd suggest you dont get full suspension. get a set of Koni's + Ground Controls.
honestly, LCA's wont do much. they're pretty much there for bling bling factor.
set of sways would be good.</TD></TR></TABLE>
ahh...
beat me to it.
haha.
if your car will never see track, then i'd suggest you dont get full suspension. get a set of Koni's + Ground Controls.
honestly, LCA's wont do much. they're pretty much there for bling bling factor.
set of sways would be good.</TD></TR></TABLE>
ahh...
beat me to it.
haha.
12-10-2007, 03:29 PM
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Re: (lowfast)
Originally Posted by lowfast
Just buy full suspension. I'd start with coilovers and LCA's
Originally Posted by Jdmb16sir2
X2 buy a full suspension, ES bushings, LCA's, and some sturt bars and call it a day.
OP: I live in the chicago burbs. Are you on MWIR.net? Do you plan on going to WMHM8?
Anyway, there are tons of ways to adress handling. Since you said this is a street car/daily driver first and then a "track" car second, get something flexible. Lots of people have had success with the Koni/Ground control setup.
I think good spring rates for civics/integras to speak in GENERAL terms are around 350-550lb/inch area. I used 350lb front and 450lb rear for my Ek. It handled AMAZINGLY well for the $$ I spent on it. It also rode very well.
Stay AWAY from polyurethane bushings for your purposes. They will make the car ride like a skateboard. I had them on 2 of my cars...and will never have them again. Honda's OEM rubber bushings are very well made.
Your tire wear issues could just be an alignment problem. Toe out is a common problem after years of wear on hondas.
If you're going to be setting up your suspension in other than stock form, do all your mods first, and then an alignment second. Your other option is to buy a lifetime alignment from firestone or some other place that does that service. You can align to your specs whenever you want.
Alignment, suspension components, setup, driving style, tires, chassis integrity, etc etc. will ALL play a part in handling. It's almost impossible to answer the question specifically for your setup.
Try just getting out to a HDPE or autocross event. Drive the car hard under a controlled environment. Find out what your likes/dislikes are. You have you figure out your driving style before claiming to have one.
Ex: I like over steer. As long as it's controlled, I can make it beautiful. All my cars have over steered slightly. From my civics, to my S13 to my S2000. Except My GSR. It's stock...and I plan on leaving it that way lol. But I dont mind controllable rotational oversteer. It's how I make a car go fast around a track.
Some people might not like that. It might make them uneasy. Their driving style might not be compatible with it. Hard to know what works for you till you try it out.
There are, however, some tips to live by:
Camber kits are not always nessacary. You can get rid of tire wear without using them most of the time (unless you're drag racing or doing burn outs). They can be used to fine tune a suspension if you know what you're doing. A good camber setting on street civics IMO is around -2 to -2.5degrees all around. Fine tune depending on your driving style/tires.
Tires will be the BIGGEST bang for the buck mod for handling.
Bigger sway bar up front = more under steer. Bigger bar out back = more over steer.
Dont go too big on swaybars. OEM parts are nice. ITR/CTR parts have been proven over and over. Plus you get OEM quality, fit, and finish.
Get brakes if you plan on tracking the car. I love the ITR/CTR 5 lug setup. Looks great, works great, and again, OEM quality.
Dont go too stiff on springs. American roads and lot of american tracks are bumpy. Tune accordingly.
Learn to drive. Learn to drive. Learn to drive. (if you haven't allready).
New springs will sag about 2-10mm. Align. Then drive for 1500 miles or so. Align again. Keep in mind that your ride height will be reduced by 2-10mm within these 1500 miles. 2-10mm is with QUALITY springs. I had shitty springs sag between 1/2''-1'' lol. I did the install right before a road trip. Everyone was staring at how low my car was....and i ripped off my fender liner on a bump on the way home.
Toe changes when you change any other suspension geometry. It is the BIGGEST cause of tire wear.
Toe can be used as a powerful tool to fine tune suspension setups. It can also ruin setups. Use it in moderation. No more than 1/8'' in or out for a street car. No more than 1/4'' in or out for a track car. This spec works for almost all cars. S2000s and NSXes are 2 cars that come to mind that the technique doesn't work on.
Stay safe.
Modified by B serious at 4:39 PM 12/10/2007
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12-10-2007, 03:38 PM
#8
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Re: (B serious)
oh ****.
i quoted myself. i meant to quote Malakai. whoops.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B serious »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
lol..ok? That wasn't really an insightful response. "THROW MONEY AT IT". What exactly do LCAs do for performance?
OP: I live in the chicago burbs. Are you on MWIR.net? Do you plan on going to WMHM8?
Anyway, there are tons of ways to adress handling. Since you said this is a street car/daily driver first and then a "track" car second, get something flexible. Lots of people have had success with the Koni/Ground control setup.
I think good spring rates for civics/integras to speak in GENERAL terms are around 350-550lb/inch area. I used 350lb front and 450lb rear for my Ek. It handled AMAZINGLY well for the $$ I spent on it. It also rode very well.
Stay AWAY from polyurethane bushings for your purposes. They will make the car ride like a skateboard. I had them on 2 of my cars...and will never have them again. Honda's OEM rubber bushings are very well made.
Your tire wear issues could just be an alignment problem. Toe out is a common problem after years of wear on hondas.
If you're going to be setting up your suspension in other than stock form, do all your mods first, and then an alignment second. Your other option is to buy a lifetime alignment from firestone or some other place that does that service. You can align to your specs whenever you want.
Alignment, suspension components, setup, driving style, tires, chassis integrity, etc etc. will ALL play a part in handling. It's almost impossible to answer the question specifically for your setup.
Try just getting out to a HDPE or autocross event. Drive the car hard under a controlled environment. Find out what your likes/dislikes are. You have you figure out your driving style before claiming to have one.
Ex: I like over steer. As long as it's controlled, I can make it beautiful. All my cars have over steered slightly. From my civics, to my S13 to my S2000. Except My GSR. It's stock...and I plan on leaving it that way lol. But I dont mind controllable rotational oversteer. It's how I make a car go fast around a track.
Some people might not like that. It might make them uneasy. Their driving style might not be compatible with it. Hard to know what works for you till you try it out.
There are, however, some tips to live by:
Camber kits are not always nessacary. You can get rid of tire wear without using them most of the time (unless you're drag racing or doing burn outs). They can be used to fine tune a suspension if you know what you're doing. A good camber setting on street civics IMO is around -2 to -2.5degrees all around. Fine tune depending on your driving style/tires.
Tires will be the BIGGEST bang for the buck mod for handling.
Bigger sway bar up front = more under steer. Bigger bar out back = more over steer.
Dont go too big on swaybars. OEM parts are nice. ITR/CTR parts have been proven over and over. Plus you get OEM quality, fit, and finish.
Get brakes if you plan on tracking the car. I love the ITR/CTR 5 lug setup. Looks great, works great, and again, OEM quality.
Dont go too stiff on springs. American roads and lot of american tracks are bumpy. Tune accordingly.
Learn to drive. Learn to drive. Learn to drive. (if you haven't allready).
</TD></TR></TABLE>
QFT.
i quoted myself. i meant to quote Malakai. whoops.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B serious »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
lol..ok? That wasn't really an insightful response. "THROW MONEY AT IT". What exactly do LCAs do for performance?
OP: I live in the chicago burbs. Are you on MWIR.net? Do you plan on going to WMHM8?
Anyway, there are tons of ways to adress handling. Since you said this is a street car/daily driver first and then a "track" car second, get something flexible. Lots of people have had success with the Koni/Ground control setup.
I think good spring rates for civics/integras to speak in GENERAL terms are around 350-550lb/inch area. I used 350lb front and 450lb rear for my Ek. It handled AMAZINGLY well for the $$ I spent on it. It also rode very well.
Stay AWAY from polyurethane bushings for your purposes. They will make the car ride like a skateboard. I had them on 2 of my cars...and will never have them again. Honda's OEM rubber bushings are very well made.
Your tire wear issues could just be an alignment problem. Toe out is a common problem after years of wear on hondas.
If you're going to be setting up your suspension in other than stock form, do all your mods first, and then an alignment second. Your other option is to buy a lifetime alignment from firestone or some other place that does that service. You can align to your specs whenever you want.
Alignment, suspension components, setup, driving style, tires, chassis integrity, etc etc. will ALL play a part in handling. It's almost impossible to answer the question specifically for your setup.
Try just getting out to a HDPE or autocross event. Drive the car hard under a controlled environment. Find out what your likes/dislikes are. You have you figure out your driving style before claiming to have one.
Ex: I like over steer. As long as it's controlled, I can make it beautiful. All my cars have over steered slightly. From my civics, to my S13 to my S2000. Except My GSR. It's stock...and I plan on leaving it that way lol. But I dont mind controllable rotational oversteer. It's how I make a car go fast around a track.
Some people might not like that. It might make them uneasy. Their driving style might not be compatible with it. Hard to know what works for you till you try it out.
There are, however, some tips to live by:
Camber kits are not always nessacary. You can get rid of tire wear without using them most of the time (unless you're drag racing or doing burn outs). They can be used to fine tune a suspension if you know what you're doing. A good camber setting on street civics IMO is around -2 to -2.5degrees all around. Fine tune depending on your driving style/tires.
Tires will be the BIGGEST bang for the buck mod for handling.
Bigger sway bar up front = more under steer. Bigger bar out back = more over steer.
Dont go too big on swaybars. OEM parts are nice. ITR/CTR parts have been proven over and over. Plus you get OEM quality, fit, and finish.
Get brakes if you plan on tracking the car. I love the ITR/CTR 5 lug setup. Looks great, works great, and again, OEM quality.
Dont go too stiff on springs. American roads and lot of american tracks are bumpy. Tune accordingly.
Learn to drive. Learn to drive. Learn to drive. (if you haven't allready).
</TD></TR></TABLE>
QFT.
12-10-2007, 03:54 PM
#9
Honda-Tech Member
Re: (B serious)
Originally Posted by B serious
lol..ok? That wasn't really an insightful response. "THROW MONEY AT IT". What exactly do LCAs do for performance?
OP: I live in the chicago burbs. Are you on MWIR.net? Do you plan on going to WMHM8?
Anyway, there are tons of ways to adress handling. Since you said this is a street car/daily driver first and then a "track" car second, get something flexible. Lots of people have had success with the Koni/Ground control setup.
I think good spring rates for civics/integras to speak in GENERAL terms are around 350-550lb/inch area. I used 350lb front and 450lb rear for my Ek. It handled AMAZINGLY well for the $$ I spent on it. It also rode very well.
Stay AWAY from polyurethane bushings for your purposes. They will make the car ride like a skateboard. I had them on 2 of my cars...and will never have them again. Honda's OEM rubber bushings are very well made.
Your tire wear issues could just be an alignment problem. Toe out is a common problem after years of wear on hondas.
If you're going to be setting up your suspension in other than stock form, do all your mods first, and then an alignment second. Your other option is to buy a lifetime alignment from firestone or some other place that does that service. You can align to your specs whenever you want.
Alignment, suspension components, setup, driving style, tires, chassis integrity, etc etc. will ALL play a part in handling. It's almost impossible to answer the question specifically for your setup.
Try just getting out to a HDPE or autocross event. Drive the car hard under a controlled environment. Find out what your likes/dislikes are. You have you figure out your driving style before claiming to have one.
Ex: I like over steer. As long as it's controlled, I can make it beautiful. All my cars have over steered slightly. From my civics, to my S13 to my S2000. Except My GSR. It's stock...and I plan on leaving it that way lol. But I dont mind controllable rotational oversteer. It's how I make a car go fast around a track.
Some people might not like that. It might make them uneasy. Their driving style might not be compatible with it. Hard to know what works for you till you try it out.
There are, however, some tips to live by:
Camber kits are not always nessacary. You can get rid of tire wear without using them most of the time (unless you're drag racing or doing burn outs). They can be used to fine tune a suspension if you know what you're doing. A good camber setting on street civics IMO is around -2 to -2.5degrees all around. Fine tune depending on your driving style/tires.
Tires will be the BIGGEST bang for the buck mod for handling.
Bigger sway bar up front = more under steer. Bigger bar out back = more over steer.
Dont go too big on swaybars. OEM parts are nice. ITR/CTR parts have been proven over and over. Plus you get OEM quality, fit, and finish.
Get brakes if you plan on tracking the car. I love the ITR/CTR 5 lug setup. Looks great, works great, and again, OEM quality.
Dont go too stiff on springs. American roads and lot of american tracks are bumpy. Tune accordingly.
Learn to drive. Learn to drive. Learn to drive. (if you haven't allready).
New springs will sag about 2-10mm. Align. Then drive for 1500 miles or so. Align again. Keep in mind that your ride height will be reduced by 2-10mm within these 1500 miles. 2-10mm is with QUALITY springs. I had shitty springs sag between 1/2''-1'' lol. I did the install right before a road trip. Everyone was staring at how low my car was....and i ripped off my fender liner on a bump on the way home.
Toe changes when you change any other suspension geometry. It is the BIGGEST cause of tire wear.
Toe can be used as a powerful tool to fine tune suspension setups. It can also ruin setups. Use it in moderation. No more than 1/8'' in or out for a street car. No more than 1/4'' in or out for a track car. This spec works for almost all cars. S2000s and NSXes are 2 cars that come to mind that the technique doesn't work on.
Stay safe.
Modified by B serious at 4:39 PM 12/10/2007
couldn't say it better myself.
12-10-2007, 03:54 PM
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Re: (diLLy)
off topic.
But I just picked these up today
But I cant install them due to me losing my Ray's lug nut key
I just bought a new one for $31
I havent driven the car in 2.5 months...and wont be able to drive it probably till april
Modified by B serious at 5:10 PM 12/10/2007
But I just picked these up today
But I cant install them due to me losing my Ray's lug nut key
I just bought a new one for $31
I havent driven the car in 2.5 months...and wont be able to drive it probably till april
Modified by B serious at 5:10 PM 12/10/2007
12-10-2007, 05:52 PM
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Re: (B serious)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B serious »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Stay AWAY from polyurethane bushings for your purposes. They will make the car ride like a skateboard. I had them on 2 of my cars...and will never have them again. Honda's OEM rubber bushings are very well made.
Modified by B serious at 4:39 PM 12/10/2007</TD></TR></TABLE>
thinking to put one of those in my car. what do you mean by skateboard ride? stiff or soft?
Stay AWAY from polyurethane bushings for your purposes. They will make the car ride like a skateboard. I had them on 2 of my cars...and will never have them again. Honda's OEM rubber bushings are very well made.
Modified by B serious at 4:39 PM 12/10/2007</TD></TR></TABLE>
thinking to put one of those in my car. what do you mean by skateboard ride? stiff or soft?
12-10-2007, 06:04 PM
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Re: (plumers)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by plumers »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
thinking to put one of those in my car. what do you mean by skateboard ride? stiff or soft?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Polyurethane is used to replace rubber bushings and still retain the properties of vibration dampening, while increasing the hardness and decreasing the ductility.
It would be stiffer.
thinking to put one of those in my car. what do you mean by skateboard ride? stiff or soft?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Polyurethane is used to replace rubber bushings and still retain the properties of vibration dampening, while increasing the hardness and decreasing the ductility.
It would be stiffer.
12-10-2007, 06:25 PM
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Re: Handling : How to address it the right way? (diLLy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by diLLy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
if your car will never see track, then i'd suggest you dont get full suspension. get a set of Koni's + Ground Controls.
honestly, LCA's wont do much. they're pretty much there for bling bling factor.
set of sways would be good.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Can u give a deatled explanation on the whole es bushings? Like whats the makor difference with them, and how manny bushings are there, and how do u change the,. Thnaks
if your car will never see track, then i'd suggest you dont get full suspension. get a set of Koni's + Ground Controls.
honestly, LCA's wont do much. they're pretty much there for bling bling factor.
set of sways would be good.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Can u give a deatled explanation on the whole es bushings? Like whats the makor difference with them, and how manny bushings are there, and how do u change the,. Thnaks
12-10-2007, 06:39 PM
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Re: Handling : How to address it the right way? (oovvutt)
oh btw, here's my plan to beef up my suspension system better.
Eibach Prokit springs
Eibach Pro Damper
Eibach LCA
Eibach front/rear sways (26/17mm)
replace all of my stock bushings using ES or OEM replacement
Megan racing front strut bar
Rear sway bar increases your handling very significant because it can reduce the amount of body roll on your my car.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by oovvutt »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Can u give a deatled explanation on the whole es bushings? Like whats the makor difference with them, and how manny bushings are there, and how do u change the,. Thnaks</TD></TR></TABLE>
all i know ES bushings simply replaces the original rubber bushing with polyurethane. installation should be pretty straight forward, i'm gonna have my mechanics replaced all of the bushings with either ES or OEM while redoing my suspension setup.
one of my friend put one of those ES bushing for his engine mount and his whole car is now vibrating like hell. that's why i'm still thinking twice to put one of those on my suspension.
Eibach Prokit springs
Eibach Pro Damper
Eibach LCA
Eibach front/rear sways (26/17mm)
replace all of my stock bushings using ES or OEM replacement
Megan racing front strut bar
Rear sway bar increases your handling very significant because it can reduce the amount of body roll on your my car.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by oovvutt »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Can u give a deatled explanation on the whole es bushings? Like whats the makor difference with them, and how manny bushings are there, and how do u change the,. Thnaks</TD></TR></TABLE>
all i know ES bushings simply replaces the original rubber bushing with polyurethane. installation should be pretty straight forward, i'm gonna have my mechanics replaced all of the bushings with either ES or OEM while redoing my suspension setup.
one of my friend put one of those ES bushing for his engine mount and his whole car is now vibrating like hell. that's why i'm still thinking twice to put one of those on my suspension.
12-10-2007, 07:00 PM
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Re: (plumers)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by plumers »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
thinking to put one of those in my car. what do you mean by skateboard ride? stiff or soft?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I mean it's going to be WAY too stiff for a daily driven street car. Plus, I dont really see them as nessacary. If you were building a track only car, you'd do the most pillowball or spherical metal bushings you could...with some polyurethane in the places you couldnt.
Well, either way, if you decide to do polyurethane, DO NOT do the rear trailing arm's big bushings. A polyurethane bushing in that area is a HORRIBLE idea. They do not come in the master set. They dont allow proper articulation and oscillation of the suspension.
thinking to put one of those in my car. what do you mean by skateboard ride? stiff or soft?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I mean it's going to be WAY too stiff for a daily driven street car. Plus, I dont really see them as nessacary. If you were building a track only car, you'd do the most pillowball or spherical metal bushings you could...with some polyurethane in the places you couldnt.
Well, either way, if you decide to do polyurethane, DO NOT do the rear trailing arm's big bushings. A polyurethane bushing in that area is a HORRIBLE idea. They do not come in the master set. They dont allow proper articulation and oscillation of the suspension.
12-10-2007, 07:02 PM
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Re: Handling : How to address it the right way? (plumers)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by plumers »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Rear sway bar increases your handling very significant because it can reduce the amount of body roll on your my car.
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A front sway bar will do the same thing. Your combination of 26mm front and 17mm rear seems very understeer prone. 26mm is the same size as the Si or CTR. It's bigger than the ITR bar. It's a BIG BOY.
Rear sway bar increases your handling very significant because it can reduce the amount of body roll on your my car.
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A front sway bar will do the same thing. Your combination of 26mm front and 17mm rear seems very understeer prone. 26mm is the same size as the Si or CTR. It's bigger than the ITR bar. It's a BIG BOY.
12-10-2007, 07:53 PM
#18
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Re: Handling : How to address it the right way? (BRealtoYourself)
softer springs with stiff anti sway bars will give a more forgiving ride for all around use... and good performance tires.
12-10-2007, 07:56 PM
#19
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Re: Handling : How to address it the right way? (bpkmrtoes)
In my list of most important suspension upgrades on a budget (subjective)
TIRES/wheels > Shocks > springs/coilovers > Sway bar > Camber Adjustment
For basics. With all of those you'll have an entirely different drive. Buy a setup that works for your driving style. A good suspension is going to take a lot of R&D and trial and error.
TIRES/wheels > Shocks > springs/coilovers > Sway bar > Camber Adjustment
For basics. With all of those you'll have an entirely different drive. Buy a setup that works for your driving style. A good suspension is going to take a lot of R&D and trial and error.
12-10-2007, 10:17 PM
#20
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Re: Handling : How to address it the right way? (ek forever guy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ek forever guy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">In my list of most important suspension upgrades on a budget (subjective)
TIRES/wheels > Shocks > springs/coilovers > Sway bar > Camber Adjustment
For basics. With all of those you'll have an entirely different drive. Buy a setup that works for your driving style. A good suspension is going to take a lot of R&D and trial and error.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I agree.
Also, the engine/trans, power of the car, power delivery, etc. may not affect just straight up dry handling, but corner exit will be affected. Weight distribution and all that too. But I think that's way too advanced for a daily driven street car that will never see the track.
Are you afraid of it?
TIRES/wheels > Shocks > springs/coilovers > Sway bar > Camber Adjustment
For basics. With all of those you'll have an entirely different drive. Buy a setup that works for your driving style. A good suspension is going to take a lot of R&D and trial and error.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I agree.
Also, the engine/trans, power of the car, power delivery, etc. may not affect just straight up dry handling, but corner exit will be affected. Weight distribution and all that too. But I think that's way too advanced for a daily driven street car that will never see the track.
Are you afraid of it?
12-10-2007, 10:43 PM
#21
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One general rule of thumb is that a front-wheel-drive compact like a Honda has it's suspension set up for performance by stiffening the rear and softening the front. Obviously it's far more complicated than that but still where you want to start. However, Honda deliberately sets up their cars with understeer in mind (general rule; stiff front, soft rear) as a safety measure under extreme street driving conditions. So basically the easiest and one of the most cost-effective ways to suspension tune for a fun street car is to reverse this by starting with the stabilizers. Put a thinner bar up front and a thicker bar in the rear.
As for urethane bushings, they aid handling (or more accurately, response) by being stiffer and therefore allowing the chassis to act upon the actual suspension sooner rather than compressing the bushing first. Polyurethane bushings are meant to be a compromise between rubber (OEM) and steel (full race car). They won't cause your teeth to chatter while driving, like steel, but they will transmit a lot of vibration to the driver and passengers so they're not suited to the car if comfort is an issue. The only applications where they'll have a nice drivability/performance advantage without impinging on comfort are the stabilizer bushings and shifter bushings.
As for urethane bushings, they aid handling (or more accurately, response) by being stiffer and therefore allowing the chassis to act upon the actual suspension sooner rather than compressing the bushing first. Polyurethane bushings are meant to be a compromise between rubber (OEM) and steel (full race car). They won't cause your teeth to chatter while driving, like steel, but they will transmit a lot of vibration to the driver and passengers so they're not suited to the car if comfort is an issue. The only applications where they'll have a nice drivability/performance advantage without impinging on comfort are the stabilizer bushings and shifter bushings.
12-10-2007, 10:49 PM
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Re: (Hardedge)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hardedge »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">One general rule of thumb is that a front-wheel-drive compact like a Honda has it's suspension set up for performance by stiffening the rear and softening the front. Obviously it's far more complicated than that but still where you want to start. However, Honda deliberately sets up their cars with understeer in mind (general rule; stiff front, soft rear) as a safety measure under extreme street driving conditions. So basically the easiest and one of the most cost-effective ways to suspension tune for a fun street car is to reverse this by starting with the stabilizers. Put a thinner bar up front and a thicker bar in the rear.
As for urethane bushings, they aid handling (or more accurately, response) by being stiffer and therefore allowing the chassis to act upon the actual suspension sooner rather than compressing the bushing first. Polyurethane bushings are meant to be a compromise between rubber (OEM) and steel (full race car). They won't cause your teeth to chatter while driving, like steel, but they will transmit a lot of vibration to the driver and passengers so they're not suited to the car if comfort is an issue. The only applications where they'll have a nice drivability/performance advantage without impinging on comfort are the stabilizer bushings and shifter bushings. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Dangerous advice. You still need a larger bar up front. Hondas come with around 60/40 weight distribution as a general rule. A thinner than stock bar up front would probably be a bad idea. You should thicken up the rear bar a little, but be conservative when you do it. You also have to buy a subframe brace to prevent the bar from ripping itself off your subframe for any civic/integra except an ITR/CTR.
Also, have you ever had a car with polyurethane bushings and even like 450lb/in (considered to be mild/medium spicy variety) springs? It WILL make your teeth fall out. Small cracks in the road are the most annoying. It's a lot of noise for nothing. If the car is mostly a street car, the OEM honda rubber busings are VERY well made, and function flawlessly. Just make sure you CLOCK THEM if you lower the car or do any suspension work that invovles loosening them.
As for urethane bushings, they aid handling (or more accurately, response) by being stiffer and therefore allowing the chassis to act upon the actual suspension sooner rather than compressing the bushing first. Polyurethane bushings are meant to be a compromise between rubber (OEM) and steel (full race car). They won't cause your teeth to chatter while driving, like steel, but they will transmit a lot of vibration to the driver and passengers so they're not suited to the car if comfort is an issue. The only applications where they'll have a nice drivability/performance advantage without impinging on comfort are the stabilizer bushings and shifter bushings. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Dangerous advice. You still need a larger bar up front. Hondas come with around 60/40 weight distribution as a general rule. A thinner than stock bar up front would probably be a bad idea. You should thicken up the rear bar a little, but be conservative when you do it. You also have to buy a subframe brace to prevent the bar from ripping itself off your subframe for any civic/integra except an ITR/CTR.
Also, have you ever had a car with polyurethane bushings and even like 450lb/in (considered to be mild/medium spicy variety) springs? It WILL make your teeth fall out. Small cracks in the road are the most annoying. It's a lot of noise for nothing. If the car is mostly a street car, the OEM honda rubber busings are VERY well made, and function flawlessly. Just make sure you CLOCK THEM if you lower the car or do any suspension work that invovles loosening them.
