Honda Civic / Del Sol (1992 - 2000) EG/EH/EJ/EK/EM1 Discussion

Final Drive FD and LSD info plus questions (gear teeth, fit etc)

 
Old 09-29-2004, 07:28 AM
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Default Final Drive FD and LSD info plus questions (gear teeth, fit etc)

Dunno if this is of any use, but here are some pics to differentiate between Type R FD, LSD, countershaft vs. Civic 92 EG9 parts.







I also have some questions, pls excuse me for my ignorance.

I understand that the Type R LSD and FD must go together when being transplanted into a Civic gearbox and that we can't just put in the FD or LSD alone. But I read that an ITR 4.785 will fit a stock GSR differential with no probs?

So anyway, the thing I am unclear about is; which part of the ITR 4.785 can't fit the stock differential? Doesn't it screw on exactly as in, don't the 10 holes correspond to the 10 on the stock differential?

Also, when they sell aftermarket 4.929 FDs, it comes with a countershaft. Why is that necessary? Doesn't the FD fit as long as it can 'mount' onto the differential? Isn't the countershaft more related to the differential instead?

So theoretically, a 4.929 FD for a Civic would not be able to fit a DC2 or EK9 gearbox?

Sorry for the questions. If someone has nice clear pics of a Civic gearbox (internals), pls do share it with me... thanks!
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Old 09-29-2004, 03:14 PM
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Default Re: Final Drive FD and LSD info plus questions (Gloomyz)

bump... anyone?
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Old 10-30-2004, 06:31 PM
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Default Re: Final Drive FD and LSD info plus questions (Gloomyz)

Here is the answer. You can use the type r lsd in a gsr if the gear fits around the lsd. You don't have to use a final and main shaft. You cann't use just a main shaft without the final gear. You have to use both or neither. You can use both without the lsd. You cann't use the main shaft and final (4.78 or bigger)without using the first gear, collar and needle bearings for a 98 type r. The part numbers are: 1st gear 23421-P80-E30
Distance collar 23914-P80-E30
Needle bearing 91107-P80-E31
They run about $125.00. Think I paid 110.00 shipped. Same goes for aftermarket. I have an os giken 4.929. had to get the gear and stuff.


One more thing for other people. The b16a family for the civic's and integra gs, ls, rs have a different final drive bolt pattern so you cann't use the final or the lsd unless change diff, final, main shaft, and first with collar and needle bearings(depending if your going to a 4.78 or bigger).
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Old 10-30-2004, 06:56 PM
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Default Re: Final Drive FD and LSD info plus questions (integramic)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by integramic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Here is the answer. You can use the type r lsd in a gsr if the gear fits around the lsd. You don't have to use a final and main shaft. You cann't use just a main shaft without the final gear. You have to use both or neither. You can use both without the lsd. You cann't use the main shaft and final (4.78 or bigger)without using the first gear, collar and needle bearings for a 98 type r. The part numbers are: 1st gear 23421-P80-E30
Distance collar 23914-P80-E30
Needle bearing 91107-P80-E31
They run about $125.00. Think I paid 110.00 shipped. Same goes for aftermarket. I have an os giken 4.929. had to get the gear and stuff.


One more thing for other people. The b16a family for the civic's and integra gs, ls, rs have a different final drive bolt pattern so you cann't use the final or the lsd unless change diff, final, main shaft, and first with collar and needle bearings(depending if your going to a 4.78 or bigger).</TD></TR></TABLE>


Exchange Countershaft where mainshaft was used in that post. The countershaft pinion and differential ring gear make up the final drive. They must be kept together as a set, because countershaft position is not adjustable within the tranny case.
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Old 10-30-2004, 08:24 PM
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Default Re: Final Drive FD and LSD info plus questions (integramic)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by integramic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Here is the answer. You can use the type r lsd in a gsr if the gear fits around the lsd. You don't have to use a final and main shaft. You cann't use just a main shaft without the final gear. You have to use both or neither. You can use both without the lsd. You cann't use the main shaft and final (4.78 or bigger)without using the first gear, collar and needle bearings for a 98 type r. The part numbers are: 1st gear 23421-P80-E30
Distance collar 23914-P80-E30
Needle bearing 91107-P80-E31
They run about $125.00. Think I paid 110.00 shipped. Same goes for aftermarket. I have an os giken 4.929. had to get the gear and stuff.


One more thing for other people. The b16a family for the civic's and integra gs, ls, rs have a different final drive bolt pattern so you cann't use the final or the lsd unless change diff, final, main shaft, and first with collar and needle bearings(depending if your going to a 4.78 or bigger).</TD></TR></TABLE>

So if I have a 01 ITR tranny and still had my B16a Quaife, can I just change out the B16a Quaife, B16a differential ring gear and the B16a counter shaft into the ITR tranny? Or do I need the B16a distance collar, B16a 1st gear and the B16a needle bearings? Or can I use the ITR distance collar, 1st gear and needle bearings?
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Old 10-30-2004, 08:31 PM
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Default Re: Final Drive FD and LSD info plus questions (Gloomyz)

the teeth of the b16 final drive meshes with the teeth of the stock counter shaft

the teeth of the 4.7 final drive meshes with the teeht of the corresonding counter shaft,

try to mix match then, and the teeth will missalign, and destroy teeth

b16 final drive's outer diameter is the same as the ITR, but the inner diameter is smaller on the b16 compared to the ITR, which is why they won't fit ITR/GSR differentials, and vice versa

b16 and LS share the same size ID for the final drive
GSR and ITR sahre the same size ID for the final drive

hope that clears some questions

feel free to ask more
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Old 10-30-2004, 08:36 PM
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Default Re: Final Drive FD and LSD info plus questions (Blown90hatcH)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blown90hatcH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

So if I have a 01 ITR tranny and still had my B16a Quaife, can I just change out the B16a Quaife, B16a differential ring gear and the B16a counter shaft into the ITR tranny? Or do I need the B16a distance collar, B16a 1st gear and the B16a needle bearings? Or can I use the ITR distance collar, 1st gear and needle bearings?</TD></TR></TABLE>

the b16 and stock USDM ITR tranny share the same final drive of 4.40
so if you have a quaife that is b16 sized, you can put it in your itr with the stock itr countershaft. along with the b16 final drive

but if you have an itr that has the stock lsd already, you won't see much improvement by putting in the quaife, i'd just sell it
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Old 10-30-2004, 08:39 PM
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Default Re: Final Drive FD and LSD info plus questions (Dan GSR)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dan GSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

the b16 and stock USDM ITR tranny share the same final drive of 4.40
so if you have a quaife that is b16 sized, you can put it in your itr with the stock itr countershaft. along with the b16 final drive

but if you have an itr that has the stock lsd already, you won't see much improvement by putting in the quaife, i'd just sell it</TD></TR></TABLE>

I thought that you could not share the B16 ring gear and the ITR counter shaft? I bought the ITR tranny from the dealer and replaced the stock diff with the quaife from my other tranny. I figured around 600whp, the stock ITR diff would die.
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Old 10-30-2004, 09:03 PM
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Missing one thing. The bolt pattern is different. The gsr and type r have one pattern and the rest have a different one. I don't know what the itr falls under.. Never had one.
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Old 10-31-2004, 01:14 AM
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Default Re: Final Drive FD and LSD info plus questions (Blown90hatcH)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blown90hatcH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I thought that you could not share the B16 ring gear and the ITR counter shaft?</TD></TR></TABLE>

if you have the JDM ITR transmission, then the b16 ring gear wouldn't mesh
the 4.785 is different

the USDM ITR and USDM B16 has the same exact gearing
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Old 10-31-2004, 09:16 AM
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Default Re: Final Drive FD and LSD info plus questions (Dan GSR)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dan GSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

if you have the JDM ITR transmission, then the b16 ring gear wouldn't mesh
the 4.785 is different

the USDM ITR and USDM B16 has the same exact gearing</TD></TR></TABLE>
So you are saying that my 14tooth USDM ITR countershaft will work with the 64tooth B16a diff ring gear?

What is the tooth count on the LS ring gear and countershaft?

Do I need the B16a distance collar, B16a 1st gear and the B16a needle bearings to run the B16a countershaft, ring gear, diff? Or can I use the ITR distance collar, 1st gear and needle bearings?
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Old 10-31-2004, 03:53 PM
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Default Re: Final Drive FD and LSD info plus questions (Blown90hatcH)

leave the itr countershaft assembled

just put in the quaife with b16 ring gear
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Old 10-31-2004, 04:00 PM
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Default Re: Final Drive FD and LSD info plus questions (Dan GSR)

What is the tooth count on the LS ring gear and countershaft?

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Old 10-31-2004, 04:02 PM
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Default Re: Final Drive FD and LSD info plus questions (Dan GSR)

And Can I run the B16a countershaft and diff ring gear, with the ITR 1st gear, needle bearings and distance collar?
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Old 10-31-2004, 04:35 PM
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Default Re: Final Drive FD and LSD info plus questions (Blown90hatcH)

why?
just run the itr trans with quaife and b16 ring gear, its a drop in procedure
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Old 10-31-2004, 04:43 PM
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Default Re: Final Drive FD and LSD info plus questions (Dan GSR)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dan GSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">why?
just run the itr trans with quaife and b16 ring gear, its a drop in procedure</TD></TR></TABLE>

Recap: bought brand new ITR trans from dealer. Tried to install what I am sure is the B16a/Ls quaife into it from my old setup. Realized the ring gear was different from the ITR vs. B16a/LS. Swapped ring gear and tried to rotate assembly. The diff and countershaft did not feel smooth. Changed out countershaft to old countershaft that worked with the quaife LSD/ring gear.

Blew up countershaft on launch. Want to make sure that I have the B16 counter shaft and not LS counter in it. Also need to confirm if I can run the ITR 1st gear, needle bearings and distance collar.
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Old 10-31-2004, 05:25 PM
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i always thought the b16 tranny had a 4.4, not a 4.2 final drive (like the LS/RS tranny). also, anyone know if i can change the mainshaft/counter shaft/FD on my LS tranny so i can have a shorter FD?
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Old 10-31-2004, 07:11 PM
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Default Re: Final Drive FD and LSD info plus questions (Blown90hatcH)

only time you need to run a 1st gear that isn't the one that came with the transmission is when you get a JDM or ATS final
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Old 10-31-2004, 07:17 PM
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Default Re: Final Drive FD and LSD info plus questions (Blown90hatcH)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Blown90hatcH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Recap: bought brand new ITR trans from dealer. Tried to install what I am sure is the B16a/Ls quaife into it from my old setup. Realized the ring gear was different from the ITR vs. B16a/LS. Swapped ring gear and tried to rotate assembly. The diff and countershaft did not feel smooth. Changed out countershaft to old countershaft that worked with the quaife LSD/ring gear.

Blew up countershaft on launch. Want to make sure that I have the B16 counter shaft and not LS counter in it. Also need to confirm if I can run the ITR 1st gear, needle bearings and distance collar. </TD></TR></TABLE>

if you want to you could use a b16 counter shaft, with the itr gears on it, no need to though if your sure the ring gear your using is from a USDM B16A

also ive seen blown counters shafts, due to the bearings on the counter shaft breaking, which causes the shaft to misalign and incorrectly mesh with the ring gear, usually ,make a huge mess,
the last bearing on the countershaft, right under the nut that holds it together, likes to break. I always replace this part when taking apart the counter shaft.

also, you have to be carefull when your putting the case back on, if you don't spread the C clip properly, and try to close the two halves of the case, you will put stress on the bearing, which can cause premature failure

I noticed that the outer race on this bearings is very weak.
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Old 10-31-2004, 07:20 PM
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Default Re: Final Drive FD and LSD info plus questions (Dan GSR)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dan GSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

if you want to you could use a b16 counter shaft, with the itr gears on it, no need to though if your sure the ring gear your using is from a USDM B16A

also ive seen blown counters shafts, due to the bearings on the counter shaft breaking, which causes the shaft to misalign and incorrectly mesh with the ring gear, usually ,make a huge mess,
the last bearing on the countershaft, right under the nut that holds it together, likes to break. I always replace this part when taking apart the counter shaft.

also, you have to be carefull when your putting the case back on, if you don't spread the C clip properly, and try to close the two halves of the case, you will put stress on the bearing, which can cause premature failure

I noticed that the outer race on this bearings is very weak.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, I know about the bearings, etc. Thanks. I just wanted to confirm that I can run the B16a counter and ring gear with the ITR 1st, space collar and needle bearings.

NOw, do you know the teeth count for the LS counter and ring gear?
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Old 10-31-2004, 07:21 PM
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<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dantastic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i always thought the b16 tranny had a 4.4, not a 4.2 final drive (like the LS/RS tranny). also, anyone know if i can change the mainshaft/counter shaft/FD on my LS tranny so i can have a shorter FD?</TD></TR></TABLE>

you can change the FD, to a B16 4.4 you will also have to change the counther shaft, I don't think its worth the labor

you can change to a jdm itr or ATS final drive if you use a GSR/ITR sized differential, also I don't think its worth the labor and parts

I'd much rather just buy a new or used ITR tranmission

yes the overall gearing will be shorter by putting in a higher numerical final drive in a LS, but the gearing between each gear will remain the same, car will still fall on its face going 3 to 4
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Old 10-31-2004, 07:21 PM
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Default Re: Final Drive FD and LSD info plus questions (Blown90hatcH)

sorry, I sold the one LS set that i had left , and I don't recall what the tooth count was
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Old 10-31-2004, 07:34 PM
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Default Re: Final Drive FD and LSD info plus questions (Dan GSR)

https://honda-tech.com/zero...age=1

sounds like 64 tooth is 4.2
and 66 tooth is 4.4
and both use a 15 T counter shaft
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Old 10-31-2004, 07:50 PM
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Default Re: Final Drive FD and LSD info plus questions (Dan GSR)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dan GSR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">https://honda-tech.com/zero...age=1

sounds like 64 tooth is 4.2
and 66 tooth is 4.4
and both use a 15 T counter shaft</TD></TR></TABLE>

Which may have explained why my ring gear that was on my quaife....64 tooth.. did not mate with the ITR countershaft. Now my beef is can I run this 64 tooth counter with the 15tooth counter and the ITR 1st, needle and spacer?

I am tempted to just convert the stupid thing to the stock ITR 4.40 to make sure there is no issues.
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Old 11-26-2004, 04:53 PM
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Default Re: Final Drive FD and LSD info plus questions (Blown90hatcH)

Anyone know what the gsr final drive teeth count are? I'm hereing 65.... Would like to know the mainshaft also.
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