Failed Smog - 92 Civic DX - HC:244, CO:0.75, NOx:3154
#1
Failed Smog - 92 Civic DX - HC:244, CO:0.75, NOx:3154
1/10/12 Update: I hate reading through long threads, so here's a TL:DR, a too long, didn't read, shortened update.
Failed smog miserably. Test results are attached. Replaced:
-O2 Sensor
-PCV Valve
-Fuel Filter
-Thermostat
And basic maintenance like oil change, transmission fluid change, spark plugs and wires, and air filter.
Compression test, without foot on pedal = 165, 160, 161, 162 - OK!
Vacuum Gauge = 19 in. Hg - OK!
Tested catalytic converter using infrared thermometer - unsure.
Adjusted timing to specs - OK!
=Squirted some boiling hot distilled water into the vacuum line from the brake booster in an attempt to de-carbon. May have made oil watery. Will change oil soon.
>Detail: Car spews white smoke on a cold start while warming up, but after warmed up, it stops. This model has no EGR system.
With all of this done, I haven't yet gotten another smog check. Not confident I'll pass, but I have no idea. What do I need?
===============================================
1992 Civic DX 4-Door 1.5L, D15B7
Took a smog test, fixed ignition timing, changed O2 sensor, PCV valve, fuel filter, along with other general maintenance, bottle of CRC Guaranteed to Pass, and 91 premium Chevron. This model has no EGR. Took the free re-test, and failed again, even worse than before. White smoke comes out of the tailpipe.
Here are the two smog check readings: http://imgur.com/a/M0uDD
Basically during the 2nd test, at 15mph, HC worsened by 55 or 29%, CO by .04 or 5%, and NOx by 438 or 16%.
Still exceeding by = HC: 154%, CO: 34%, and NOx: 267%.
Interesting thing to note is that the O2 reading increased from 0.9% to 2.8%.
What should I do next?
Failed smog miserably. Test results are attached. Replaced:
-O2 Sensor
-PCV Valve
-Fuel Filter
-Thermostat
And basic maintenance like oil change, transmission fluid change, spark plugs and wires, and air filter.
Compression test, without foot on pedal = 165, 160, 161, 162 - OK!
Vacuum Gauge = 19 in. Hg - OK!
Tested catalytic converter using infrared thermometer - unsure.
Adjusted timing to specs - OK!
=Squirted some boiling hot distilled water into the vacuum line from the brake booster in an attempt to de-carbon. May have made oil watery. Will change oil soon.
>Detail: Car spews white smoke on a cold start while warming up, but after warmed up, it stops. This model has no EGR system.
With all of this done, I haven't yet gotten another smog check. Not confident I'll pass, but I have no idea. What do I need?
===============================================
1992 Civic DX 4-Door 1.5L, D15B7
Took a smog test, fixed ignition timing, changed O2 sensor, PCV valve, fuel filter, along with other general maintenance, bottle of CRC Guaranteed to Pass, and 91 premium Chevron. This model has no EGR. Took the free re-test, and failed again, even worse than before. White smoke comes out of the tailpipe.
Here are the two smog check readings: http://imgur.com/a/M0uDD
Basically during the 2nd test, at 15mph, HC worsened by 55 or 29%, CO by .04 or 5%, and NOx by 438 or 16%.
Still exceeding by = HC: 154%, CO: 34%, and NOx: 267%.
Interesting thing to note is that the O2 reading increased from 0.9% to 2.8%.
What should I do next?
Last edited by AMS_; 01-09-2013 at 09:31 PM.
#3
Re: Failed Smog - 92 Civic DX - HC:244, CO:0.75, NOx:3154
Found an exhaust leak after the cat right at the joint where the gasket goes. But would a leak there really make a difference, and cause 3000+ NOx readings?
#6
Re: Failed Smog - 92 Civic DX - HC:244, CO:0.75, NOx:3154
I have read reports about people failing NOx even after replacing their cat, but after replacing a $3 gasket exhaust leak, they passed. Not sure what to make of it.
#7
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Re: Failed Smog - 92 Civic DX - HC:244, CO:0.75, NOx:3154
Yes.
Boil a pot of water. The thermostat should open really quick.
The stock gauge is basically worthless unless the car starts to overheat.
I failed due to a stuck open thermostat. The gauge read as it normally does.
Boil a pot of water. The thermostat should open really quick.
The stock gauge is basically worthless unless the car starts to overheat.
I failed due to a stuck open thermostat. The gauge read as it normally does.
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#8
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Re: Failed Smog - 92 Civic DX - HC:244, CO:0.75, NOx:3154
Don't put your metal thermostat in the microwave.
Are you 100% sure your car does not come with EGR? I think it does.
Did the white smoke come out before used "CRC Guaranteed to Pass"? What is the history of the car? ( tune up/plugs/wires/cap/rotor/timing belt/valve adjustment/miles/cat OEM/aftermarket, etc.... )
Are you 100% sure your car does not come with EGR? I think it does.
Did the white smoke come out before used "CRC Guaranteed to Pass"? What is the history of the car? ( tune up/plugs/wires/cap/rotor/timing belt/valve adjustment/miles/cat OEM/aftermarket, etc.... )
#9
Re: Failed Smog - 92 Civic DX - HC:244, CO:0.75, NOx:3154
Yeah I read somewhere that D15B7 doesn't have an EGR, and the smog tech marked N/A for EGR visual and functional.
Pretty sure it smoked from the moment I got it a week ago. Just pulled my plugs and one was cracked, and the wire for that spark plug had issues too. So I'll be getting new plugs and wires tomorrow.
Just did a compression test and got 160, 165, 162, 161. So that's good there. I guess I did that just to check up, but also some left field grasp in the dark that maybe the head gasket's got a rip and was allowing coolant to leak, causing white smoke. Still not ruling out a head gasket issue, but it's looking less likely. Coolant is full but maybe the last guy just topped it off or something.
Cap, rotor, timing belt, valve adjustment I have no idea. Planning on doing a valve adjustment but if that's not going to fix a 3000+ NOx reading, I'm going to put it off for higher priority stuff. I think the cat is OEM. It's old. But I'd have to check that. I've changed the oil, transmission fluid, got a new oxygen sensor, and new fuel filter. First my timing was at 10 BTDC, and I failed there. Then it was at 18. Spec if 16. Hopefully I've got it at 14 now, still a pass, and hopefully retarding it helps emissions a little. But I think it'll barely put a dent in 3000+ NOx, lol.
Right now I'm thinking, fix exhaust leaks and get a new cat, but I really know very little about cars and have no idea what I'm doing. Before I get a new cat, I'll probably try a bunch of crazy things, like bang it with a mallet or something. Check if it's clogged, check the temperature before and after the cat, and other random things I'm reading on the internet.
Hmm, maybe I've got this wrong, and tell me if I do, but would it possible that a defective thermostat could cause the engine to overheat, yet not overheat to the point of breakdown, but enough to cause excessively high NOx readings, because I know that high temperatures can cause high NOx readings. Maybe that's completely 100% wrong, I don't know.
Don't put your metal thermostat in the microwave.
Are you 100% sure your car does not come with EGR? I think it does.
Did the white smoke come out before used "CRC Guaranteed to Pass"? What is the history of the car? ( tune up/plugs/wires/cap/rotor/timing belt/valve adjustment/miles/cat OEM/aftermarket, etc.... )
Are you 100% sure your car does not come with EGR? I think it does.
Did the white smoke come out before used "CRC Guaranteed to Pass"? What is the history of the car? ( tune up/plugs/wires/cap/rotor/timing belt/valve adjustment/miles/cat OEM/aftermarket, etc.... )
Just did a compression test and got 160, 165, 162, 161. So that's good there. I guess I did that just to check up, but also some left field grasp in the dark that maybe the head gasket's got a rip and was allowing coolant to leak, causing white smoke. Still not ruling out a head gasket issue, but it's looking less likely. Coolant is full but maybe the last guy just topped it off or something.
Cap, rotor, timing belt, valve adjustment I have no idea. Planning on doing a valve adjustment but if that's not going to fix a 3000+ NOx reading, I'm going to put it off for higher priority stuff. I think the cat is OEM. It's old. But I'd have to check that. I've changed the oil, transmission fluid, got a new oxygen sensor, and new fuel filter. First my timing was at 10 BTDC, and I failed there. Then it was at 18. Spec if 16. Hopefully I've got it at 14 now, still a pass, and hopefully retarding it helps emissions a little. But I think it'll barely put a dent in 3000+ NOx, lol.
Right now I'm thinking, fix exhaust leaks and get a new cat, but I really know very little about cars and have no idea what I'm doing. Before I get a new cat, I'll probably try a bunch of crazy things, like bang it with a mallet or something. Check if it's clogged, check the temperature before and after the cat, and other random things I'm reading on the internet.
Hmm, maybe I've got this wrong, and tell me if I do, but would it possible that a defective thermostat could cause the engine to overheat, yet not overheat to the point of breakdown, but enough to cause excessively high NOx readings, because I know that high temperatures can cause high NOx readings. Maybe that's completely 100% wrong, I don't know.
Last edited by AMS_; 01-07-2013 at 10:13 PM.
#11
Re: Failed Smog - 92 Civic DX - HC:244, CO:0.75, NOx:3154
Oh heh, I didn't do that. Engine was warm but I just cranked it without my foot on the pedal. Next time I'll remember to do that.
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Re: Failed Smog - 92 Civic DX - HC:244, CO:0.75, NOx:3154
Unless your valves are making a ridiculous amount of noise its better to just leave them alone, especially if you're not familiar with adjusting them.
The spark plug issue definitely could throw things off. Fix what's broken. Don't just throw money at parts hoping for a cure.
If the cat is bad I'd expect the car to throw a CEL although it's not out of the question to go unnoticed.
An aftermarket cat will work just as well so don't feel the need to spend the high price for an OEM cat.
Why was your timing off?
The spark plug issue definitely could throw things off. Fix what's broken. Don't just throw money at parts hoping for a cure.
If the cat is bad I'd expect the car to throw a CEL although it's not out of the question to go unnoticed.
An aftermarket cat will work just as well so don't feel the need to spend the high price for an OEM cat.
Why was your timing off?
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Re: Failed Smog - 92 Civic DX - HC:244, CO:0.75, NOx:3154
Check the temps with a laser gun before and after the cat. You can rule that out fairly easily.
If something emissions wise fails a CEL is usually triggered. I'm still leaning towards the thermostat.
If something emissions wise fails a CEL is usually triggered. I'm still leaning towards the thermostat.
#14
Re: Failed Smog - 92 Civic DX - HC:244, CO:0.75, NOx:3154
Timing was off. It was at 10 BTDC when I got it. 2nd smog check it was at 18, I adjusted it just a bit too far but it was within the spec of 16. I just adjusted it again to hopefully what is now 14, within specs, but slightly retarded in hopes that it'll help emissions just a little bit.
And yeah, if I do end up needing a cat, but hopefully I don't! I've seen places advertise like $150 installed. Maybe shady, who knows, but beggars can't be choosers. That would make a good sketch, a choosy, pretentious, beggar who reads books.
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Re: Failed Smog - 92 Civic DX - HC:244, CO:0.75, NOx:3154
I hope it's an easy fix. I had issues passing a few years ago. I have a turbo setup, no cat, yet running a clean tune and still failed. Long story short, my thermostat was stuck open causing the car to run rich.
#17
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Re: Failed Smog - 92 Civic DX - HC:244, CO:0.75, NOx:3154
A lot and I do mean a lot of aftermarket cats might only pass the first time you install them and then two years later fail. There are probably some alright cat ( still not as good as OEM ) but there are a LOT of bad cats.
I don't think I ever had a customer choose OEM when I showed them the price difference between OEM and aftermarket. hahahaha.
#18
Re: Failed Smog - 92 Civic DX - HC:244, CO:0.75, NOx:3154
This is from another post on honda-tech:
After putting in a new O2 sensor, my O2 readings went from 0.8 to 3.0. I do have an exhaust leak, but it's right after the cat. Don't know if that'll make a difference but I plan on changing out that gasket. And again, there was someone who had replaced their O2 and cat and still failed smog, but after fixing an exhaust leak, passed. I'm hoping this is it. COME ON!
I think I'm running lean as well judging by the high NOx and the white spark plugs. But again, I know nothing.
I think I'm running lean as well judging by the high NOx and the white spark plugs. But again, I know nothing.
#19
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Re: Failed Smog - 92 Civic DX - HC:244, CO:0.75, NOx:3154
Read this thread. They show the location for the EGR valve for a 1993 civic.
https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-civic-del-sol-1992-2000-1/1993-honda-civic-vx-engine-jerking-hesitating-2840850/
https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-civic-del-sol-1992-2000-1/1993-honda-civic-vx-engine-jerking-hesitating-2840850/
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Re: Failed Smog - 92 Civic DX - HC:244, CO:0.75, NOx:3154
And that's the problem right there, a $500+ part for a car that is 20 years old may or may not be appropriate.
I completely agree that OEM is more often than not the way to go but cats are ridiculously expensive.
I've seen cars pass with test pipes, it's just a matter of having the engine running properly.
#21
Re: Failed Smog - 92 Civic DX - HC:244, CO:0.75, NOx:3154
Read this thread. They show the location for the EGR valve for a 1993 civic.
https://honda-tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2840850
https://honda-tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2840850
This is my list of things to check. Feel free to chime in if there's something I'm missing or something that should have higher priority:
==Test Cat temperatures
==Bang on Cat with rubber mallet
==Test Oxygen Sensor
==Maybe check and clean O2 sensor connector
==Replace exhaust gasket after cat
==Check o2 Backpressure
==Check fans. Check fuses. Use voltmeter. (I don't think my fans are working)
==Check ECT
==Check thermostat
==Check PCV system
==Test MAP sensor
==Check for lean fuel mixture. Check fuel pump, fuel pressure, clogged hoses, etc.
==Replace Thermostat
==Replace spark plugs and wires
#22
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Re: Failed Smog - 92 Civic DX - HC:244, CO:0.75, NOx:3154
Civic cx base models did not have an egr valve, very sure only the vx d15z1 had an egr valve.
I repeatedly failed NJ emissions for high NOx a few years back, like 6 times. I bought a new cat, new o2 sensor, injector cleaner, replaced head gasket (it was bad, not just on a whim), still failed. I was running a P05 d15b8 civic cx ecu for the 8v 1.5 on a d16y7. One day I failed, went out to the parking lot, swapped in a P75 ecu, went back and passed 5 minutes after I failed. I had high NOx every time until the ecu swap. I'm assuming the p05 made me run really lean and produced the high NOx.
I'm not an expert so don't take my words for granted.
edit: This is for a 1995 dx. I guess #13 could be en EGR but it's discontinued so the part is not described.
I repeatedly failed NJ emissions for high NOx a few years back, like 6 times. I bought a new cat, new o2 sensor, injector cleaner, replaced head gasket (it was bad, not just on a whim), still failed. I was running a P05 d15b8 civic cx ecu for the 8v 1.5 on a d16y7. One day I failed, went out to the parking lot, swapped in a P75 ecu, went back and passed 5 minutes after I failed. I had high NOx every time until the ecu swap. I'm assuming the p05 made me run really lean and produced the high NOx.
I'm not an expert so don't take my words for granted.
edit: This is for a 1995 dx. I guess #13 could be en EGR but it's discontinued so the part is not described.
#23
Re: Failed Smog - 92 Civic DX - HC:244, CO:0.75, NOx:3154
My cat was done when I had nox through the roof like that. My car burned a fair bit of oil which will clog everything up with time. I didn't get a CEL on my acura and the cat had blown out completely(the honey comb was gone)
I had also replaced it with a less expensive aftermarket one 2 years prior.
I had also replaced it with a less expensive aftermarket one 2 years prior.
#24
Re: Failed Smog - 92 Civic DX - HC:244, CO:0.75, NOx:3154
The bent plug electrode is making the engine run rich, but is not likely causing the high NOx problem. Instead, running rich due to the bad plug may have quickly killed the cat.
Did you fix the exhaust leak?
Did you fix the exhaust leak?
#25
Re: Failed Smog - 92 Civic DX - HC:244, CO:0.75, NOx:3154
The exhaust leak I found was between the joints where the gasket goes right after the cat. There might be others. I'll double check while I've got in the air. And by in the air, I mean 2 feet. I've got the new gasket but, I don't know if it'll make a different for smog since it's after the cat. But I have no idea how cats work, lol.
Introducing my catalytic converter. Otherwise known as "Catalina: The Smog Test Killing Vixen." Of course, if my cat is bad, which I have no idea, I'm going to replace it anyway if the price for a cheap cat is right, say 50 or so dollars, then of course there was a reason it went bad. If you replace the cat and don't address what killed it in the first place, you'll just end up buying another cat next time smog season comes around.
Same thing goes with health and medicine. Take drugs everyday for the rest of your life, keeping the symptoms under control, but the underlying cause is never addressed. Fixing cars makes you want to be a doctor, lol. Hey, if I can figure out what's wrong with a car, surely I can figure out what diseases you have, hah. Same thing with anti-depressants too. You may cover it up for a while, but the deep psychological issues are never addressed. That's why many smokers, drinkers, and drug addicts have many issues. I should know, I was one. Didn't have normal coping skills you develop from regular hardships in life, and was thus emotionally and psychologically stunted. Arrested development. But having to face every hardship and issue head on, instead of running away to have a cigarette, a drink, a smoke, develops maturity and strength and wisdom.
I swear, there is so much about cars that has profound wisdom, lol. For instance, check engine lights. When you get sick, you in a sense get a check engine light in the form of symptoms. High temperature, runny nose, etc. When you have a difficult experience in your life, that could also be a check engine light. So what's the solution? Some people smoke or drink or use drugs, or take a painkiller to mask the pain, but that's the equivalent of just turning your check engine light off without addressing the cause! It's like an ostrich putting it's head in the sand when a lion goes after it. Is the lion still behind it chasing it? Of course! Well anyway, if you've got someone with a smoking, drinking, or drug problem, I sincerely with my entire being recommend to the highest degree Easy Way to Stop Smoking or Easy Way to Stop Drinking by Allen Carr. Even heroin addicts have quit using the principles in Stop Drinking. That man is the reason I stopped smoking and drinking after 8 years. But anyway, ladies and gentlemen:
My Catalytic Converter:
Album: http://imgur.com/a/PrBdD
Turns out this is my aftermarket catalytic converter for $100: http://www.maxautosupplies.com/CATCO...rs-65004R.html
I'm going to try to buy the cheapest and crappiest cat converter money can buy. Any recommendations? I'm not against attempting to weld, lol. That'll be fun.
But uh, should I replace it? What if I replace it and it was good, and then I fail, lol. Is there any way to clean the cat while I have it off the car?
Whoa whoa whoa whoa. Does that 7/12 mean July 2012? This car failed smog in May and July of 2012, then passed in September of 2012, 4 months ago. It - I - I don't know.
I do want to do a vacuum test like you recommended Ron. Going to have to read up on that. I'm thinking that high NOx can be caused by a lean air/fuel ratio, and a vacuum leak can cause a lean mixture. But at the same time HC is high which means rich, but maybe that was just because of that cracked spark plug or something. I have no idea. Maybe the fuel pressure is weak, and that's causing a lean A/F mixture? We'll see, I've got to do some more reading.
Yeah! Fuel pump and vacuum tester for 12 bucks at the HABBA! So wrong, and yet so so right.
Random thought: I picture myself wearing these mechanic overalls going to a movie theatre, not to watch a movie, but to play Dance Dance Revolution, you know, for the cardio, strictly for the cardio. And I imagine the lady there saying, "Sir, you need a ticket to get in." And I'll say, "Miss, I'm just here to dance." BOOM.
Introducing my catalytic converter. Otherwise known as "Catalina: The Smog Test Killing Vixen." Of course, if my cat is bad, which I have no idea, I'm going to replace it anyway if the price for a cheap cat is right, say 50 or so dollars, then of course there was a reason it went bad. If you replace the cat and don't address what killed it in the first place, you'll just end up buying another cat next time smog season comes around.
Same thing goes with health and medicine. Take drugs everyday for the rest of your life, keeping the symptoms under control, but the underlying cause is never addressed. Fixing cars makes you want to be a doctor, lol. Hey, if I can figure out what's wrong with a car, surely I can figure out what diseases you have, hah. Same thing with anti-depressants too. You may cover it up for a while, but the deep psychological issues are never addressed. That's why many smokers, drinkers, and drug addicts have many issues. I should know, I was one. Didn't have normal coping skills you develop from regular hardships in life, and was thus emotionally and psychologically stunted. Arrested development. But having to face every hardship and issue head on, instead of running away to have a cigarette, a drink, a smoke, develops maturity and strength and wisdom.
I swear, there is so much about cars that has profound wisdom, lol. For instance, check engine lights. When you get sick, you in a sense get a check engine light in the form of symptoms. High temperature, runny nose, etc. When you have a difficult experience in your life, that could also be a check engine light. So what's the solution? Some people smoke or drink or use drugs, or take a painkiller to mask the pain, but that's the equivalent of just turning your check engine light off without addressing the cause! It's like an ostrich putting it's head in the sand when a lion goes after it. Is the lion still behind it chasing it? Of course! Well anyway, if you've got someone with a smoking, drinking, or drug problem, I sincerely with my entire being recommend to the highest degree Easy Way to Stop Smoking or Easy Way to Stop Drinking by Allen Carr. Even heroin addicts have quit using the principles in Stop Drinking. That man is the reason I stopped smoking and drinking after 8 years. But anyway, ladies and gentlemen:
My Catalytic Converter:
Album: http://imgur.com/a/PrBdD
Turns out this is my aftermarket catalytic converter for $100: http://www.maxautosupplies.com/CATCO...rs-65004R.html
I'm going to try to buy the cheapest and crappiest cat converter money can buy. Any recommendations? I'm not against attempting to weld, lol. That'll be fun.
But uh, should I replace it? What if I replace it and it was good, and then I fail, lol. Is there any way to clean the cat while I have it off the car?
Whoa whoa whoa whoa. Does that 7/12 mean July 2012? This car failed smog in May and July of 2012, then passed in September of 2012, 4 months ago. It - I - I don't know.
I do want to do a vacuum test like you recommended Ron. Going to have to read up on that. I'm thinking that high NOx can be caused by a lean air/fuel ratio, and a vacuum leak can cause a lean mixture. But at the same time HC is high which means rich, but maybe that was just because of that cracked spark plug or something. I have no idea. Maybe the fuel pressure is weak, and that's causing a lean A/F mixture? We'll see, I've got to do some more reading.
Yeah! Fuel pump and vacuum tester for 12 bucks at the HABBA! So wrong, and yet so so right.
Random thought: I picture myself wearing these mechanic overalls going to a movie theatre, not to watch a movie, but to play Dance Dance Revolution, you know, for the cardio, strictly for the cardio. And I imagine the lady there saying, "Sir, you need a ticket to get in." And I'll say, "Miss, I'm just here to dance." BOOM.
Last edited by AMS_; 01-08-2013 at 03:45 PM.