avsfan

Hey all...I am a member of another Honda forum, but I thought I would try my luck here as well. This is a direct copy of what I posted there...just trying to get some answers. Thanks.

"I'm not usually one to beg for help, but I'm at a loss here. My '97 Civic EX (170k miles) died at a stoplight the other day and hasn't run since.

First a little backstory that may (I hope) be coincidental. Two weekends ago I replaced the clutch (whole kit) and flywheel. While I was at it I replaced the rear main seal and oil pan gasket as they were leaking oil. Everything came apart and went back together fine. Car ran fine for that next week. Obviously the clutch was a little more sensitive than I was used to, but no issues starting or running.

Come last Friday night, I was driving my car after having driven it around normally all day. There might have been a couple times when I thought it was running a little rough as I would decelerate to a stop, but I'm really not sure. It wasn't anything big...at least at the time it didn't seem big. Anyway, stop at a red light and I kill it at green. Go to start it back up and I get the engine to turn, but it won't start. Finally get it towed home so now it's sitting in the driveway where I can check it out. When I first got it home, I turned the key and I got nothing. No click or anything. It was like the battery was completely dead. The next morning I get up and try and it's back to turning over but not starting. So I try to jump it and still nothing. From that point on it will always turn over, but no start and no spark. So let's get into checking everything out right? Here's what I've done:

* Noted that there is no check engine light on.
* I pulled the batter out and had it load tested at the local parts store. I's fine.
* I also had starter checked. Not really sure why as it is obviously turning the engine over, but hey I was (AM) frustrated. It's fine also.
* Cables, connections, fuses all look fine.
* Pulled a plug wire off and used the spark tester that looks like a spark plug on a clamp. No spark.
* Checked the cap and rotor. The cap was ok...rotor looked a little fried, I replaced them both just because they've been on the car for 100k. While I was at it I had my son turn it over with the cap off just to make sure the rotor was turning. It is. Also of note, since replacing the cap/rotor, I've had them off a couple times after trying to start the car. There isn't a mark on them further proving that there is no spark.
* I checked the coil using the resistance test from the manuals. I got 0.50 ohms between A & B terminals. Spec calls for 0.63 to 0.77 (TEC coil). Also I got 16.2 ohms between terminal A and the secondary winding terminal. Spec calls for 12.8 to 19.2 ohms. So the primary was low. I went to the parts store and ohm'd out a brand new coil. I got the exact same readings...so I'm thinking the coil must still be ok.
* I pulled the ignition control module off and took that to two different parts stores to have them check it out. Both said it tests fine.

I thought maybe it's the alternator, because it died while running, but why wouldn't it start up at least for a minute or so until the battery goes dead? Somebody please tell me I'm an idiot and I'm not doing something or not checking something obvious. I'm ready to pull my hair out and/or have the car towed to the dealer to get checked out. I really don't want to put that kind of money into it at this point though...and it's a serious dent to my self esteem to have my car in a service shop bay. Anyone have any other ideas? And no, at this point I haven't checked for fuel because I know I'm not getting spark. Thanks for reading this novel, and thanks in advance for any ideas."

Marvin1985

iTrader: (5)

Check main relay. Any blown fuses? Also mark the distributor and remove it and check the cam key isn't broken. You mark the distributor so you can put it back on in the same position so timing isn't off. Just scratch a line on the top bolt

Fuses, relay, distributor. Check in that order

avsfan

Thanks for the quick reply. I've checked the fuses and they all look fine, but I can check again as that's easy to do. I will also check the main relay. This might be a dumb question, but if the rotor turns when I crank the engine wouldn't that indicate the cam key is not broken?

Former User

Check whether or not the fuel pump primes.

Does the CEL work? When you turn key from off to ON(II), does the CEL illuminate and then turn off after 2 seconds?

Have you hooked up a code reader to check for codes or pending codes?

yes

htjpjj

Almost always the ignitor or coil in the dizzy if no spark try a new dizzy

avsfan

I have not checked anything with fuel yet because I know I'm not getting spark. When I turn the key to ON(II) I can hear the pump whir though.

The CEL does come on and then turn off normally.

I have not checked for codes as I don't have a reader and can't get the car to the store to borrow theirs. But if the CEL had not come on before to indicate a code, and still turns on/off normally, could there be a stored code?

avsfan

Thanks for the idea, but I'd rather not just throw parts at it hoping for a solution. Is there another way to test the coil besides what I've done? It seems like it's fine.

Former User

Does the Blk/Yel wire attached to the coil and igniter unit get battery voltage with the key in ON(II)?

This^ is a good way to blow the coil, unless you first remove the 15A hood ECU fuse.. Best to avoid this test in the future.

The primary coil reading is suspect. Click the Spark link in my signature. Did you subtract the internal resistance of your meter from the reading?

I assume that you mean the secondary coil reading was 16,200 Ohms, not 16.2 Ohms.

avsfan

Ok here's another dumb question. When you say battery voltage, do you mean I should see the full 12V, or do you mean I should just see voltage period? I did this test as well and was getting some weird numbers. It would jump from 0 to like 0.5V to maybe 2V when the key was turned on.

Thanks for the heads up.

When I touch the leads together I get 0.2 ohms. So I subtract that from my reading? That would give me 0.3 between A and B then...further out of spec. But why would the new one at the parts store test the exact same?

Assumption correct.

Former User

Sounds like proper voltage is not reaching the distributor. Battery voltage = voltage reading across the two battery posts.

Now unplug the distributor connector and test whether battery voltage reaches the Blk/Yel wire in the distributor plug.

The primary Ohm reading of the coil is clearly out of spec, suggesting the coil is bad. You may have two separate problems. Address the voltage issue to the distributor first. If it does not solve the spark problem, then refocus on the coil.

avsfan

Thank you sir. I will check these items out after work today and post the results. I very much appreciate the help!

lostforawhile

use an alligator clip to ground the high tension lead from the coil to the block while doing this, grounding it wont hurt the coil, excessively high voltage from the spark not being able to jump the gap will

Former User

This^ also works to prevent blowing the coil, though I prefer the fuse removal method that blocks the ICM from ever telling the coil to release its high voltage when the goal is only to determine whether the rotor spins when the engine is cranking.

avsfan

Good morning! So a little update from last night....

First thing I did was double check my fuses...all ok. Then I checked the main relay. This also passed the tests from the manual.

So then I moved back to the ICM. Let's just say I feel like an idiot after re-reading the instructions for all the tests, but anyway I ran through them all again last night except #7 - "Check for continuity on the BLU wire between the test tachometer connector and the ICM. There should be continuity." I wasn't sure where the connector was and it was getting late. I figured it out this morning though and I will check that one tonight as all the rest passed. Disregard my post above as I AM getting 12ish V at the ICM.

So, assuming that #7 passes, step #9 says "If all the tests are normal, replace the ICM." My question now is how reliable are the tests done at the parts stores? I took my ICM in to two different parts store chains the other day. They both tested it and both said it was good. But I take that with a grain of salt too because both places used the same type of test equipment. If I have reason to believe their testing equipment isn't accurate, I'd feel better about buying a new ICM. However I do not want to just buy parts and hope for the best as we all know once they are installed they can't be returned. Thoughts?

Former User

Refocus on the coil. Its primary Ohm reading was out of spec. Remove the coil and bring it indoors to repeat the Ohm tests.

Did you open/short test the Yel/Grn wire that runs to the ECU?

Also keep in mind that a bad ECU can also cause a no-spark problem.

avsfan

I'll pull the coil when I go home for lunch and stick it on the kitchen counter so I can retest after work. Still thrown though that the brand new one at the parts store tested the exact same right after it was pulled from the shelf.

Yes, there was continuity on the YEL/GRN wire between the ECU and the ICM.

Please no. Is that something I can pull from the salvage yard and hope for the best, or better to buy new?

Also, what are your thoughts on the ICM issue? All these tests are passing so the service manual says to replace the ICM. Yet when I had it out and tested at the stores, they say it's fine.

Former User

I have no idea of what is spec for the aftermarket coil. I just know that your current coil, which I assume is original and OEM, is out of spec in the Ohm test. Can't ignore that.

This^ tests for a wire open. Did you test for a wire short?

You can buy a used ECU. But don't think about this possibility until you rule out everything else.

ICM is low on the list of possibilities because it has tested good twice independently. You have yet to rule out the coil or a short in the Yel/Grn wire.

avsfan

Sorry, yes I tested for a short. There is no continuity between the YEL/GRN and body ground.

The only step in that list that I haven't done yet is testing for continuity between the BLU wire and the test tach connector. I will do this and retest the coil tonight.

Thanks!

Former User

I don't believe a bad blue tach wire would prevent spark.

That leaves the coil and ECU.

avsfan

Well I didn't figure it would, but then again I'm electrically challenged. Ha! Crossing my fingers that it's the coil.

weezie41

get a new distributor

avsfan

Just wanted to give you a quick update...

Retested the coil after taking it out and leaving it in the house all night. It went down another 0.1 ohm to 0.3 ohms in the primary winding (including the meter's internal resistance), so I picked up a new one at the parts store today. Happy to say that after a few rough starts and dies, it fired up and runs great. I'm assuming the rough starts can be attributed to gas in the cylinders from all my attempts at starting earlier this week. I had not read the post about pulling the fuel pump fuse before then. But anyway, she's running again!

Thanks to everyone for your ideas. RonJ@HT, I can't thank you enough for your help. You definitely saved me from buying useless parts and guessing at a solution. Thank you sir.

Former User