Bense

<FONT SIZE="4">DO <FONT COLOR="red"><u>NOT</u></FONT> VOTE WITHOUT READING MY ENTIRE POST</FONT>


I can't believe that I am actually posting one of these. I've done the research on all of this, and I know nearly all the details and particulars of each idea. But there comes to a point where there is no concrete answer as to which setup is more ENJOYABLE.

Before I lay down some specs and blah blah blah, let me first explain where I am coming from. I started off with wanting to do an all motor d-series to "prove a point." I saw it as a challenge that I wanted to tackle. I started off with a fully built transmission which I now have complete. But onto the real part. I am craving more power than I know an NA d-series can put down. Unfortunately, my already built trans limits my engine choices to a degree. I do not want to sell my transmission. I also have sort of an obligation to a psuedo-sponsor, MFactory to run the parts that I got a good deal on.

This leaves me with two main options.

1. Dual charged D-Series
Start the project with a d-series power plant. I have already researched this to the Nth degree. I got the engine completely planned out. The following setup is what I have envisioned:

d15z1 block (sleeper replacement for the d15b) (i got it for free)
d15b crank (from the jdm d15b, d16 sized rod journals)
TT rods (same as eagle)
vitara pistons
ported z6 head with SS valves, valve springs, retainers, etc.
d15z1 roller rocker assembly
crower regrind of a d15z1 cam

Dual charging idea:
I don't know what turbo setup yet, but here's the thing. I've spoken with rmcdaniels, the resident supercharger master on his dual-sequential charger setup that he built, which can be found here https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1293497 rmcdaniels advised that he would be willing to help me modify a d-series jrsc to allow it to co-exist with a turbocharger.

Now I know what you're thinking. JRSC + TURBO = SUPER EXPENSIVE. Well, with the lowered cost of my engine, I had originally planned on getting a gt28r turbo and a nice intake manifold. With the used d-series JRSC's going for ~1000 it would be better to ditch the expensive ball-bearing turbo and expensive intake manifold and spend a little extra on the jrsc + turbo.

Remember, my built d engine will have less than $1000 invested in it (i'm getting the hookup from a friend on the engine work)

So with the built engine, dual charging. I think that 300whp is a very modest goal. I have spoken with Joseph Davis about this setup, he thinks that 300-350whp is a reachable goal without pushing the limits. I am not building this for peak power, I am building it with a zero lag goal. Motor would be dyno tuned by a very experienced tuner.

Next idea....

2. H22a with a H2D adapter
we all know what the H22a is capable of, so I'm not going to even go there.

$1400 shipped for a h22 from hmotorsonline
$750 for a H2D adapter

The power will be less, but like b18c5-eh2 explained about his 100% oem reliability on his b18c5 in another thread earlier today.

There are a few complications with the H2D swap. one of them requires grinding the block. Another requires the fabrication of a driverside mount. This isn't really of any concern for me. I have access to the tools required for this (grinder + welding machine) as well as several years of welding experience. So the issue of fabbing mounts is really of no concern for me.

The idea of running a stock ignition/fuel map + stock engine sounds very appealing to me, but at the sacrifice of being much slower than the 300whp D. If I went with the H2D adapter, I would have no interest in force induction.

Throttle response, OEM reliability, less headaches is what's attracting me on this build.
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I wish I had more time and money to follow through and test all these ideas.

before I even post this, I have a feeling bisi is going to be able to convince me to go with a f-series lol


EDIT: I got so carried way that I forgot to mention what I plan on doing with the car. I want it for autox and time trials on road courses. In all honesty, I'm not really much of a competitive racer. All I've ever really wanted to do is race against the clock on a road course and just keep increasing my driving skills and building my car so that it's faster and faster. I guess you could say that I'm more of a builder than a competitor. *shrugs


Modified by Bense at 11:34 AM 11/11/2006

Richie B

dude just get NOS!!
j/k both sound very tempting. g/l with your decision

sol2hatch

dual charged, that sounds awesome. Thats my vote

Eran

iTrader: (1)

The z1 build sounds fun and interesting ....

but 300whp for all that work ... wow ...

Syndacate

I am all for the boost.

H22's....they're nice..but you can run a H22 for circum 3k at 200whp, or 1500 on a D-T running 12psi on stock internals at 200whp...

I see waht you're saying about the reliability though. I still think the dual charged D would be the best option for a few reasons, one, all the parts are cheaper and more common than for an H series, another reason being the engine's perfectly fit into the bay, no custom crap. Also, the axles are perfectly straight (it's hard to get the axles straight w/ an H22 w/o it hitting the firewall, even if u do grind down the block..which you don't hav ea problem with but blah...).

With a full valve train, forged rods, and your dual charge system, you can even run 400whp safely with ARP's added into the mix...

ANd with ur sick tranny building iono what the expletive the thing'll do.....u'll spin the tires in 5th

Double Boost D FTW

Steven.

i have a feeling ur gas mileage will suck ***

Syndacate

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Steven. &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i have a feeling ur gas mileage will suck ***</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's completely variable on the way you drive a forced induction car.

Libertariat

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Syndacate &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

It's completely variable on the way you drive a forced induction car.</TD></TR></TABLE>

for DUO BOOST!@!!

Mr Hammond

My vote is a GT28RS w/ an EMS that can support anti-lag. Totally streetable.

You must be a glutton for punishment. While I admire your quest to conquer the unknown, I have to chuckle at your lack of a voice of reason.

What are your current uses and future plans for the car?

rmcdaniels

A lot depends on what you are going to use it for. Like Mr Hammond said, a GT28RS with anti-lag (a setup that I have run on my car) will get rid of lag, but it's only really applicable for drag racing.

For autocross, I think a dual-sequential charger is awesome, and I never got mine to a road course, but Mark (who is currently running the dual setup) ran it at the VIR Patriot and South courses, where it was extremely fast. Mark spanks modified STI's with it in SM (modified STI's are very fast in SM), and it's a sight to see, the explosive acceleration out of elements is jaw-dropping.

For road courses I think the H2D would also be a lot of fun. A light car with a decently powerful motor is vary fast on a road course, frequently faster than a car with an extremely powerful motor. My brother runs a gutted CRX with a built GSR motor (stock sleeves, forged internals, a little over 200 WHP, JDM ultra-short ratio transmission, etc). He had the second fastest time at Rockingham Speedway this past weekend, running in SM2 with Corvettes, but on a cheap set of Kumho Ecsta SPT street tires (shipment of his new R-compounds was delayed, so he ran the tires/wheels that he uses to drive to/from tracks).

For street use, my dual sequential setup making around 350 WHP (at only 18 PSI, I didn't want to go higher because I was going to be selling the motor and wanted to keep it in good condition) was probably the best in my opinion. The power was so smooth it was deceptive. I didn't get the rush from the extreme torque ramp of a ball-bearing turbo setup, but overall it was a faster car and easier to control. Of course it was a relatively complex system, so it would be more complicated to keep running than an H-series, but I did daily drive mine until we put it on Mark's race car.

In a perfect world I would have a Lysholm blower, or hopefully one of the new Eaton TVS blowers, something that will make 15-18 PSI efficiently, and hopefully I'll get a TVS next year when Eaton produces the TVS replacement, but in the meanwhile my 300 WHP JRSC setup should be a lot of fun when I get it put back together with the new pistons.

If you decide to dual-charge, go big on the turbo, something like a SC34 would be good. You'll be spooling it with the SC, so you don't need a super-fast spooling BB turbo, but you'll want something that won't be too much of a restriction to the SC and that will flow enough to make some good munbers, along with a good-flowing manifold.

Good luck.

EJgsr

BOOST!

Luserkid

Personally I wouldnt go the whole dual route, i would just do a single turbo D. Its very nice to have both (super and turbo) but to me it just seems unnatural unless your boosting insane mounts (kind of like big rigs). But seriously it depends on what you want the car for, if its just a daily driver sometimes weekend track ***** a turbo D will do you just fine, during the week you could stay out of boost getting great gas mileage then using the boost on weekends. I have seen quit a few D series that get 400whp on what looks like a pretty simple build. Also the anti lag that was mentioned is great. But really it depends on what your goals for the car really are. Dont do H2D though, all that work carving out the block isnt worth it just to run your super trans and test it.

Rmcdaniels, what gas do you have to run with your dual setup? pump or race?

rmcdaniels

I always run 93 octane pump. I'm not ready to start trailering my cars yet, so I like to keep them all drivable to events.

Bense

updated my post with the primary use of the car

sohcvtec1995

I would rather see the d series project then just a h22.

Mr Hammond

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bense &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">updated my post with the primary use of the car</TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh then I would totally do a GT28RS w/ anti-lag. The streetable thing was pure sarcasm, but for an Auto-X/TT car absolutely. Why go through the hassle of attempting twin charger set-up, other then just to do it? Which is fine because I still have a D-Series H1 pipe dream build on paper, but no one has proven either way yet and I'd LOVE to find out.

Personally, I like the H2B idea just because you can spend more time enjoying the car.

NonovUrbizniz

Well I voted H22... mainly because if you're a builder then getting it together is one project and then making it progressively faster will be a LOT easier with a bone stock H22 than it will be with an already dual charged setup.

Over all the idea of dualcharging a D sounds like fun and a good idea... but if you want a project car that will start up and run no problems everytime you feel like going out in it then I'd DEFINATELY go with the H22.

Power all over, reliable, and you've got PLENTY of room to build on that platform.

petty$rep

i say dual charge just b/c that would be awsome. i understand that u are not shooting for peak power, but you want acceleration with no lag, so i think the dual charge setup would be perfect.

Im pretty sure that with a little more work and money, you will be able to make the D Series dual charge setup reliable (extremely good tune). i noticed your going with the vitaras, i personally have no experience with them and i know that people have made over 400 whp with the vitara, but i would feel safer with something a little better as far as reliablility is concerned. i read ur post, r u going to get the block sleeved???? r u doing any upgrades to your cooling system????

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Syndacate &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
ANd with ur sick tranny building iono what the expletive the thing'll do.....u'll spin the tires in 5th
</TD></TR></TABLE>

i was thinking the same thing, lol. im sure that u will figure out how to get the most accel and topspeed out of the transmission after u have completed ur new setup.

i know people have done twin turbos on hondas before, but i def think the supercharger/turbo setup will be much more enjoyable.

good luck and i respect u for tryin something diff

Bense

From what I've read, the biggest problem with the vitaras is the piston to wall clearance on the stock D sleeves. I decided to go with a 0.5mm oversized vitara piston, and I'll just have the machine shop overbore accordingly. This will alleviate any piston-wall-clearance issues.

The other problem is that on d16s, the vitara sits 0.08" into the hole. This makes the top of the cylinder wall part of the combustion chamber. however with the d15s, this wont be an issue because the piston will sit 0.018" above the deck.

0.018" is nothing. Especially with an open chamber head like the z6

Bense

for cooling I have a fabricated 1.25" inch radiator. It's an aftermarket del sol vtec rad. Also the d15z1 block comes with an "oil warmer" which is nothing but an oil cooler.

spork motorsports

removed as requested

im serious tho man take it into consideration...................

edited by spork motorsports

spork motorsports

removed as per request of bense

axtran

hey bense,

when i owned a corrado and was a frequent vwvortexer, this was presented on a similar drivetrain: VW G60 Motor, 1.8L 8v, built from factory with single S/C. of course because of the S/C that VW was using was not so reliable (infamous G-Lader) the reliability factor doesn't cross over, rather, the twin S/C setup yielded lots of power for those who wanted to attempt it. this was pulley driven S/C setup, which worked on supporting the crankshaft. the only problems i remember him stating is to assure alignment because the belt itself would be quite strained amongst the three major driving pulleys.

NonovUrbizniz

Isn't there a dual charged VW in europe? like a 1.5 something?

Anyway... any plans to use an A/C clutch or something to disengage the pulley over a certain RPM?... that way you could run a more aggressive pulley with worriing about reving it too high.

petty$rep

well bense, it sounds like you have done your research and i think you are capable of making the dual charge setup RELIABLE.

my vote is still for the dual charge, if i were in your shoes i would personally be doing the dual charge just becuase i think the acceleration from this setup would be amazing