Flatland2D

I'm following along this tutorial for replacing my valve seals: http://www.team-integra.net/fo...Topic

Yesterday I was a complete retard and tried popping off the valve keepers on a cylinder at BDC. So now I've got to take the head off to retreive the fallen valve. Since I'm going that far, is there anything else worth replacing or cleaning with the head off? I don't want a full port/polish, so I'll only be replacing things that are relatively cheap or work that I can do without much risk of ruining something. I figure a new head gasket would be in order. Anything else? Also this is my daily driver so I don't have time to send the head off anywhere. I need this fixed ASAP.

Would it be too much extra trouble to replace the piston rings once the head is off? The reason I'm doing all this work is to fix a bad burning oil problem. I'd be kind of upset if I went through all this trouble, didn't replace the rings, only to find out that's where my problem was. I did do a compression test a while ago and it was pretty good, all just around 200psi. I know that's not the end-all test for bad rings but for some reason I'm pretty confident in thinking they are okay. Is there any way to differentiate between bad rings or bad valve seals?

I'm having trouble taking the intake manifold off. Do you remove it right where it mounts to the head or can you take the IM and head off together and disconnect it later? Reason I ask is that I have no idea how I'm going to reach those bolts on the bottom side of the IM. Is there a special tool for that or something?

I do plan on doing a fully built turbo install someday, but that is probably a year or two away. I'll probably have the head worked on then, and that's when I'll do "the works" on everything. I just want to stop having to buy another quart of synthetic oil every two weeks.

Thanks for any help you can offer!


Modified by Flatland2D at 8:50 PM 3/20/2007

blackKready

do yourself a favor , dont remove the intake manifold. you can tear the enginedown/take the head off , and leave it on. if your getting 200 across the board , id say youd be good with valve seals. how many miles?

Flatland2D

I don't know for sure how many miles, I'd have to double check the odometer. I'm guessing it's around or a little under 100k. Two years ago when I bought it, it had around 68k on the engine.

I'll leave the IM on. Is it connected anywhere else besides the head? Should it just come right off when the head once the head is loose?

Also to add, it's usually only smoking (or smoking the worst) at high RPM's. I don't know if that tells you anything. I suppose that'd be true for most oil problems. Also, just looking into the cylinders through the spark plug holes, cyl 4 looks pretty bad. It's got carbon deposits all over. The others still look pretty shiney. All the spark plugs however have a white/grayish deposit on them.

Thanks.

blackKready

you have to undo the support bracket underneath. goes from engine block to itake manny. also theres some wiring harness items clipped to it. other than that , head comes off with IM still on easier than seperating , and no new gasket needed , lol. thats not many miles at all , im sure your rings are fine unless the engine was abused terribly.

BlueDragon436

I would say even running 200psi compression, I would definately change the piston rings, and while you are there you might as well replace your timing belt, and all the seals, but that is what I would do while I had it apart.

Flatland2D

Thanks for the help. Is the bracket in any way accessible from the top or do you have to slide under for that?
Exactly how much extra work would it be to replace the rings once the head is off? Just a matter of removing the oil pan and unbolting the pistons?

Flatland2D

Ok, so I finally got the head off. I was able to do it all without going under the car (1. I don't have jack stands, and 2. I don't want the car on jacks since I'm working on it in my apartment parking lot). My hands really hurt bad though from all that contortioning. Most of my valves are coated with a thick deposit. Here's some pics of my progress:


The exposed head before I got to work today.


A couple hours later and a trip to Wal-Mart for a folding ratchet and I got the head off.


Piston 4 has some loose pieces of crap in there.


Piston 1 looks a little better but still crackly


Sleeve worn down pretty smooth but some cross hatching still visible. The ridge at the top doesn't feel like it stick out that much more, just like a change in texture mostly.


Head above cylinder 1. Is this normal?



Head above cylinder 2.


Head above cylinder 4.


Exhaust valve from cylinder 2. Looks like crap. Is this normal?


Bottom of same valve, also looks crappy.


So, are all these carbon deposits normal for an engine around 100k, or is this just because the oil burning problem has gone on for so long without being taken care of.

I've got a theory about why the valves look so bad that may confirm it's my valve seals that are leaking and not the piston rings. Assuming it was the seals leaking, it would make a lot of sense that there's a lot of buildup on that area. Anyone agree? I'm trying to talk myself out of doing the rings.

Also, what kind of chemicals can I use to clean this stuff off? Is it safe to carefully scape the deposits off with a razer or will I risk damaging something?

Flatland2D

Also forgot to ask, is there any way possible to reuse the head studs again or am I SOL there? I'm running a stock GSR with I/H/E bolt ons. I'll definitely be upgrading the studs when I turbo, but can I squeak by for now?

ED9man

You can reuse the head studs. Do you have a factory manual? You should follow that for the proper reassembly procedure. Shitty gas doesn't help those deposits, but the burning oil also has something to do with it. Use something top tier like Shell or 76 or Chevron.

Flatland2D

I exclusively fill up on Shell premium (93 octane). I think the oil just got way out of hand. That's good to know about the head studs. Is this level of deposits normal or is this a bad case? What should I use to clean them?

De_tour

Buy a couple bottles of techron and let it sit overnight in it

I would consult a few local shops about cleaning the valves that way you can find a general idea on how not to mess up and do it a way thats cheap for you and will work.

blackKready

your supposed to make sure each head bolt goes back in the hole it came out of as well. thats quite a bit of deposit for that young of an engine. if theres no ridge at the top sides of cylinder walls , thats a good sign. that head might need some work if valve seats are so bad they dont seal good anymore. should have had a leakdown test performed before taking head off but hindsight is like that. are you gonna bother putting rings in it? looking at the holes and considering its burning oil at higher revs , even though i said dont bother before , seeing pics id say bluedragon is right , fire some rings in it. all that loose debris sitting on piston has surely worked its way into the rings. walls look a little scratchy , hard to tell precisely from pics. have you ever had a bottom end apart before? your gonna need a torque wrench most importantly. you have to make sure each piston goes back in the hole it came out , facing proper way. rings have to be facing certain way , your gonna need ring compressor , couple tools. groove cleaner. tightened in proper sequence as well as torque. get the helms manual for sure , download it.

Flatland2D

Well fortunately I labeled each head stud as I took it out and placed them in separate bags. What kind of work would you suggest for the head? I guess I could have it done if I found a local shop, but I don't have a lot of time to ship it out or wait around if they're backed up.

I might put new rings in it. Are you saying to replace them just because the walls look a little scratchy (because of the gunk)? I'll inspect each wall and see how they look. I've never taken the bottom end apart and I'm trying to avoid that if possible. I plan on turboing in a year or two and I'll have the head off again. Could the rings be ok for that much longer? I just want to stop burning oil so bad.

Does it make sense that so much buildup is on the top of the valve because of bad seals? The striations kind of look like it was blown from the valve seal down to the bottom of the valve.

Thanks a bunch for all the help.

blackKready

it looks to me like the engine was burning coolant. i would suggest taking the head in at least to have inspected. your valves are just nasty , lol. put new valves and seals in it and have them do a 3 angle. im not sure of your budget here but your head is dirty man. try cleaning it yourself i guess see how it comes out.

as far as rings , youl need a torque wrench. youl need car up on stands. youl need to go buy new rod bearings(OEM) , and new rings(also OEM).

-take oil pan off.
-take oil pickup off , clean it really good and store in very clean place.
-take the baffle plate off.
-when you start cracking rod bolts , crank one , than crack the other on the same rod before looseing anything off further. good idea to loosen an engine like you tighten them. in steps.
-once you have the rod bolts undone for a piston , pop it out the top of block. if theres any ridge left there at all it can cause a problem , but hondas generally are good.
-label each piston as to what hole it came out of , as well as where the markings point(arrors on bottom of rods pointing at timing side of engine).
-now that you have the pistons out , tear all the old rings off the pistons.
-youl need a groove cleaner to do this properly. any debris left in between the ringlands is bad. so borrow the tool and clean the grooves good.
-your also gonna need an engine honing tool. you need to put a honing tool on a drill , and run the drill not wide open , half speed maybe ,not too fast , and run it up and down , up and down in the hole to recrosshatch it. the scratches are supposed to intersect at approx 60 degree angle so try your best. you say you can see the crosshatch still , follow the marks as best you can.
-once all 4 pistons are clean as a whistle , install new rings on them. you really dont need a compressor for this , just be gentle , start at the end of a ring , get it in the groove , gently spread ring apart by hand enough to work it down in a circle into groove. start with a thin oil ring , the corregated oil ring , another thin oil ring and than the 2 compression rings.
-once all 4 pistons are ready to go , strip the old bearings out of the 2 halfs of the rods big hole , if they are still there. clean everything man i cant stress enough , NO GRIT. clean clean clean , lol.
-now get yourself a clean NEW bucket or container deep enough , pour a couple litres of 5W30 oil in the container , need to be deep enough to cover entire piston skirt when dipped head first , should be anyways.
-first put 2 pieces of gas line over the rod bolts , now dip the clean piston into the tub of oil head down , up to the edge of skirts , let it get in the grooves a little , pull it out , let it drip the excess off. than align the rings properly , maunal youl need man for sure. once rings are aligned and piston has good soak of oil , slide ring compressor down over the piston and tighten it down leaving the skirts hang out the bottom. make sure when its tightened into compressor , that they are aligned properly. now making sure its going in the right hole , and pointing right way , pistons have IN stamped on the top anyways. carefully , get the skirt of the piston into the hole , let it right down so the compressor is sitting tight against sleeve. and holding it tight down , tap with wooden handle or hammer or similar tool down into hole , making sure the rod is at a 90 degree angle with the crank. if its not and you have to twist piston in the hole to get it on the crank , thats not a good thing as the ring alignment can change , so try and get them in as best you can. do this for all 4 of course.
-now that all 4 are in the holes , start at one end , and tap the piston gently down till it gets close to crank , than reach in with clean hands , and put the bearing half into the rod with engine assembly lube give it a coat , guide it down over rod journals and make sure its tight to crank. put the other half of bearing in the cap , little engine lube on that and fire that over the crank as well , tighten the bolts little better than hand tight. do this for all 4 cylinders. try and rotate the engine while doing this as little as possible. torque everything in 2 steps up to the required spec.

anyways you get the idea , the helms manual will tell you everything i just did and more. youl need it download it. theres nothing to this man.