smooshies

OK, so I have a 2000 Civic hatchback DX, with the stock D16Y7. I bought it about a year ago. SHortly after I bought it, I heard some pinging, so I had a reputable shop check the valve and ignition timing. They informed me that the timing marks on the cam gear did not line up correctly, and that they had to use a caliper to set the timing, but that it was spot on.

After that, I started keeping track of my MPG, and it was pretty bad, and since I have no idea of the service history, I installed a new fuel filter, NGK spark plugs (ZFR4F-11), K&N air filter, spark plug wires (7mm Supermag [I know, I know, it was the best they had at the auto parts store I was at]) and an OEM cap and rotor.

I also shot some water through it in an attempt to clean out any carbon build up. I used about a quarter gallon. It pinged before, still pings now, although there may have been slightly less pinging right after the cleaning, or it could have all been in my head.

I took it back to the shop to recheck the timing, and they confirmed that it is spot on. I retarded it slightly since then to try and stop the pinging, but it is still there - not too bad, but I would prefer that it didn't ping at all.

My mpg were still pretty bad, so I got a scangauge, and now I'm able to get about to get much better mpg out of it, and there are no codes.

If I retard the timing any more, I lose all low end power. The only thing I can think of is to retard the cam timing by a tooth, but I wanted to see if ya'll had any better ideas or suggestions, or have experienced this before.

Plug wires and cam gear are what stand out to me, but with no background on why the cam gear markings don't match up, and the car getting decent spark (as far as I can tell), I have been hesitant, since I don't know if either one will help.

Thanks!

Former User

Using a timing gun and following the instructions in the ignition timing diagram found in the FAQs sticky, is the ignition timing set to spec (red mark on crank pulley aligns with pointer)? If so, you may want to try buying gas from a different gas station. Bad gas can cause pinging.

smooshies

My timing gun broke, I have been meaning to get a new one... and come to think of it, I think I notice it most with Shell gas. I'll pick up a timing gun and report the results when I get a chance. Although, I'm wondering if I could just jump the service connector and trust the scangauge readout for timing? Naaah, Ill get a timing gun.

Former User

Yes, you absolutely need to buy, borrow, or rent a timing gun. You can't trust the scan tool read out if the mechanical timing is off. It is critical at this point to know whether the pointer aligns with the red mark on the crank pulley. Follow the directions in the diagram (see FAQs sticky).

smooshies

OK, fiiiinally was able to pick up a new timing light, and with the service connector jumped, I am able to set the timing directly to the red mark on the crank pulley. This is where it pings. I have been running it 2-3 degrees retarded from the red mark to retain as much low end power as possible, and minimize pinging. I still hear slight pinging.

How to I confirm the shop set the cam timing correctly if the cam pulley's marks are inaccurate? Junkyard pulley? Anybody have any possibilities WHY the cam marks are inaccurate? If they lined up correctly, it would be so simple for me to check the cam timing.... Grrrr. The shop said they are nearly 180 degrees off, and I have no way (that I know of) to verify or disprove this, so???

Thanks!

PS, thanks RonJ@HT for all your help so far!

Former User

If you can set the ignition timing to spec, then the mechanical timing is fine. Now try buying gas at a different gas station. If the problem persists, then you may want to check the valve clearances.

smooshies

The valve clearances were adjusted by me about 4 months ago, and then re-checked 3 months ago to make sure they were accurate (after the car sat overnight to ensure a nice cold engine, both times)...

I never really buy gas from the same gas station. It seems to be slightly worse when I use Shell gas, but other than that, it's been pretty consistent over the last 5 (or more) tanks of mostly Chevron with some Valero and 76 mixed in there.

I'm starting to wonder if I should even care... I can avoid it by stomping on the gas forcing a downshift. It just seems bizarre to me that I can't get the pinging noise to go away... It doesn't make sense. Unless it's something else, and it just sounds exactly like pinging... Who knows? Maybe it's an angry sewer rat living in my intake manifold who collects marbles in a tin can...

Thanks for reminding me that if the cam timing was off, the timing wouldn't be able to hit spec, that clears up the cam timing questions I had.

Former User

Provide details about how you are checking/adjusting the ignition timing.

smooshies

I make sure the car is at operating temperature, turn off the car, jump the service connector (bright blue two wire female plug right next to ECU) with a paper clip, turn on the car, make sure the CEL is on, hook up the timing light to +, spark plug wire #1, and ground, push the on button (on the timing light) and verify the timing is correct by looking straight down at the crank pulley - lining up the timing indicators with the red mark on the crank pulley. To adjust, I loosen the 3 12mm bolts that hold the distributor on the head, and turn clockwise to retard, counter-clockwise to advance.

Ok, so just for sh*ts and giggles, I set it back to spec (red mark) today, right after my last post. No pinging - or very little pinging anyways. My last tank before this one was from Shell, which is when I noticed it more than I have in a few weeks - since my last tank of Shell, so I am going to stop using that gas, as it seems to be the catalyst here. Wish my car just had a knock sensor...

Thanks for all the help, I will post back here if (or when) I notice it again.

I might add that when I bought the car, and until about 3 weeks ago, it had Bosch Platinum plugs in it, which other people on this site have equated with carbon building up quickly. I don't know how accurate that is, if at all, but it could just be carbon buildup that I need to clean out making my compression too high... Or that pesky sewer rat.

Anyways, I know now that my MPG are decent, all my filters are new, my timing is spot on, and what kind of gas not to buy, so I'm pretty happy for now.

Thanks again!

Former User

Yeah, keep the ignition timing set to the red mark. You might also try a Seafoam treatment.

smooshies

Yeah, I've been thinking of doing that, but I JUST put new 02 sensors in, so I'm a little hesitant. I should probably just get over it and do it...

What is your opinion of seafoam (or loose carbon because of seafoam) vs 02 sensors?

strategy400

I'm inclined to say that the ZFR4F-11 is a 1 step hotter than stock plug. You might want to try a ZFR5F-11 or even ZFR6F-11.

A plug running too hot will cause preignition and damage the engine. This will tend to happen under a higher load (sounds like your symptom).

Look at the under hood sticker to double check my info because I'm not 100% on the stock plug heat range for your car..

smooshies

Ahhhh, I thought it was one step cooler! Well now I know what I'm doing tomorrow. Thanks!

smooshies

Stock is the ZFR5F-11, so that makes sense. I guess I thought smaller number = less heat or something. I'm going to get the ZFR6F-11s installed tomorrow, that should take care of this once and for all. Well if that isn't a case of not doing my research...

Former User

As long as you follow the Seafoam directions, I dn't think there's any substantial risk to the O2 sensors. You probably should replace the spark plugs after a Seafoam treatment though, so don't install new ZFR5F-11 plugs yet.

And follow the recommendations of the owners manual by using only NGK ZFR5F-11 spark plugs.

smooshies

Alright, now I have a plan of attack! Woohoo!

ZFR5F-11 it is.

Thanks everyone!

smooshies

Allright, timing is still at spec, ZFR5F-11s installed, no pinging as far as I can tell! I am going to wait on the seafoaming, since I just recently "watered" it, which is supposed to clean carbon deposits as well... Seems good for now, Thanks again!

strategy400

Not to thread jack but I think it's run it's course anyway (and this is sort of related).

My car underhood sticker says use NGK ZFR5F-11 for normal conditions and use ZFR6F-11 for extended high speed or hot conditions driving.

I drive 4-5 hours (168 miles round trip) commute daily and at least three of those hours is highway 70-90 mph. I also drive up a mountain pass at almost full throttle (just before kick-down)and through the desert (up to 115 in the summer) for about an hour. The other 2 hours is stop and go traffic. Think I qualify for the colder plugs?

smooshies

My stupid, ugly, no good car started pinging again yesterday. Got some seafoam, just need to find time to do it. Suggestions on gas brands to avoid? So far Shell, Arco, and Valero are on my list. On the good brands list are Chevron, 76, and BP. Yesterday I had a moment of weakness and filled up at a Valero, which is possibly why it's pinging again. I will see after the seafoam, though.

strategy400

Has the head ever been off? The car should run ok with 87 and stock plugs. It's either too far advanced, choked with carbon or running lean for some reason.

Do you have a vacuum leak in or around the intake manifold somewhere? A hose popped off or maybe your brake booster hose or diaphragm is leaking air into the manifold.

Check your fuel filter/fuel pressure.

Double check the valve timing.

Try some 93 octane to see if carbon is making your compression too high for 87.

Former User

That's a lot of different gas stations. All having bad gas seems highly unlikely. Put some Seafoam into the gas tank and through the brake booster hose and then go from there.

You also may find information here useful.

Is the engine running hot?

When did you last replace the fuel filter?

I don't think a vacuum leak would cause the problem, but it would cause a high or fluctuating idle.

smooshies

I have no idea if the head has been off, or any of the service history before I owned it, other than it was in an accident to the right rear of the vehicle, and that quarter panel has been replaced. The questionable cam gear may indicate that the head has been off, but???

The fuel filter was replaced by me about 5000 miles ago. I haven't checked fuel pressure. What's the best way to do that (aside from disconnecting a fuel liine and having someone crank it)?

When I add seafoam to the gas tank, it seems to help.

smooshies

Thanks for the link, by the way - that's some really good info.

smooshies

It got really bad, and started happening not only while accelerating, but after I took my foot off the gas, so I took it to a shop I work across the street from, thinking they were going to tell me that my engine was toast, but it just ended up being a loose alternator belt... I'm laughing at myself and kicking myself at the same time. I can still hear the rattle a little bit, but now at least I know what it is. I guess the alternator might be getting ready to go, with the hood open and my head right next to it, I can hear chirping (there are no birds in there, I looked) after revving the engine...

Thanks everyone for your help!

DO/\/\O

Good work!