Prypiat

My 1995 civic dx burned a hole through two valves. I purchased a reman cylinder head and swapped it out. The car starts perfectly and pulls fine. Driving it down the road it runs great. But at idle it makes a "lub" sound.

I have checked the obvious stuff. Valve clearance is good, compression is good, I have actually found some intake leaks that were present before the new cylinder head. No oil in coolant or coolant in oil.

Any ideas?

White_EG1

Check your mechanical, and ignition timing.

Prypiat

I have been through both mechanical and spark timing at least half a dozen times. I'll try and post pictures later on. When cylinder 1 is at TDC (top of cylinder 1 stroke, distributor pointing at cylinder 1) the single mark about an inch clockwise from the three closely grouped marks lines up perfectly with the marks on the engine. The valve timing wheel has "UP" in the UP direction and the marks are even with the cylinder head. The cylinder head isn't perfectly even with the valve timing marks but I tried a tooth in the opposite direction (a little bit off but in the other direction) and the distributor ran out of adjustment to get the spark timing right.

The spark timing was set as per the manual - Warmed the engine, shut off, jumpered wire at passenger foot, started engine, set spark timing on the center of the three closely grouped marks referenced earlier.

Also to note - I have listened with a stethoscope to the injectors. They are all actuating. I blew compressed air through them and soaked them in mineral spirits while the intake was off. I also attached the timing light to each of the four spark plug wires to see if I could hear the mechanical relay "missing" when the engine "lubbed". All seem to be getting spark consistently even when the engine is lubbing.

Slight load on the engine seems to make the lub go away. When the engine fan kicks on due to engine heat the lub goes away. :confused:

Prypiat

OK, so I walked out to take a picture of all the timing marks and realized that the valve timing almost had to be wrong. The marks that are supposed to line up with the cylinder head were more counter-clockwise than they should have been. I adjusted the timing belt over a tooth to even it up and started the car up. It idled almost perfectly. No lub. I let the car warm up so I could adjust the spark timing. Once the car was warm it started idling very poorly. I shut it off, installed jumper, re-started engine, and checked spark timing. It was way off. The mark was more clockwise on the pulley than the spark timing mark. I loosened up the distributor and rotated it the maximum distance of travel. I am still about 5 degrees off of the spark timing mark. I'm not sure what would cause the spark timing to be completely out of range.

And the lub-lub is back. The only thing I can think is i need a new timing belt. It is fairly new but the new cylinder head was extremely hard to turn when I installed it. Maybe it stretched?

Any help is appreciated.

TomCat39

If your remaned head was milled it will have changed the distance between the cam shaft and crank shaft.

This will throw your mechanical timing off about a half a tooth and the only fix is an adjustable cam gear. Either way the ignition timing will be off at one extreme or another due to the half a tooth or so variance.

Prypiat

Is this likely the cause of the lub?

BTW, i ordered an adjustable cam gear. I expect what you described is my issue.

Prypiat

I ordered an adjustable cam gear to eliminate that from the equation. Meanwhile I took some time to re-evaluate my timing. This is my crank pulley currently:



It is pretty much dead on when looking from above the markers. The white (set of three) marks was painted by me. This is what I am setting the spark timing by. If I remember correctly those are technically the "red" marks as per the manual.

The cam pulley, while the crank is as pictured above:



It seems pretty clear to me that while it isn't perfect, a tooth in either direction would put it significantly off.

In this configuration the distributor will not rotate far enough to get the spark timing on the three closely grouped marks on the crank pulley. When the flash occurs from the timing gun the three marks are about 5 degrees more counter-clockwise than the marker on the engine.

From my understanding, since the engine is rotating counter-clockwise from the driver wheel perspective, my spark is occurring too early. It is sparking before the three marks have passed the alignment guide.

If I move over a tooth by rotating the valve timing one tooth counter-clockwise I can get the spark timing correct but the engine does not idle properly.

Toughts and/or suggestions?

[edit] Just for kicks I just tried rotating the cam pulley a tooth clockwise from where it is in the picture above. Engine would not start.

TomCat39

If you can set ignition timing correctly to the 16 degree mark through the sights (middle of the 3 grouped together marks) then your mechanical and ignition timing are correct.

Remember that you have to do ignition timing with the engine fully warmed up and with the service connector jumpered with the paperclip.

After that you can do the IDLE adjustment process to fix your idle issue along with a clean out of both the IACV and the FITV.

I'd actually start with the clean out of the IACV and FITV, then see if you need to do the Idle adjustment by the FSM procedure.

It could be your head wasn't milled enough to force requirement of the adjustable cam gear to be able to set mechanical and ignition timings.

Also you may want to do a leak down test once you have properly set both mechanical and ignition timing.

You may have another problem all together.

Prypiat

I took the car to a mechanic friend. He said there is definitely a miss throughout the RPM range. He messed with the plug wires a good bit trying to isolate a cylinder but it doesn't seem to be a cylinder completely missing on every engine cycle. I had an idle hunting issue a while back (20k miles ago) and replaced the FITV. I also cleaned up the IACV. I know for sure the IACV is actuating and sealed without air leaks.

Is there anything I can provide that would help you guys help me out? A video? pictures of plugs? Sound clip of exhaust during miss? Trend of exhaust manifold temp versus engine RPM?

Again - I am about 20 degrees off TDC on the spark timing right now because I'm out of adjustment on the distributer. The valve timing is still as it was pictured above.. This is frustrating..

TomCat39

Wait....

Looking at those pictures above. When you put the crank to the lone mark (TDC) in the sights and you look at your cam gear. The 3 and 9 o'clock marks are not level with the head, they are level with the ground.

I believe the head surface isn't perfectly level horizontally. The two side marks needs to follow the same exact plane as the top head surface.

It really seems like the half a tooth variance from the head mill.

I think you are waiting for the adjustable cam gear.

Prypiat

The cam gear isn't perfectly level with the head but a tooth in either direction is clearly worse than pictured.

Adjustable cam gear should be here mid week.

If there is anything else that I can check in the meantime let me know..

TomCat39

You know the history of the motor better than any of us.

You would be the one to know if a simple compression test will provide additional information or not.

Other than that, I really can't think of anything as you aren't getting any CEL's or have any other issues other than mechanical timing being off which in turn makes it impossible to dial int he ignition timing.

Until you get those taken care of, it's sort of pointless to poke and prod into anything else.

Prypiat

Oh jeez. Got the adjustable gear in the mail yesterday evening. Enthusiastically began the install. Pulley did not come with a woodruff key. I went to Lowe's, Advance, and O'Reiley's yesterday and no one had anything even close.

Will hit up NAPA some time this week. I messed with the existing timing a little yesterday - When the valve timing is perfect I am about 5 degrees off on the crank pulley. Not sure if that is even enough to matter. I may be barking up the wrong tree.

Prypiat

OK, so I'm working on getting the key set into the new adjustable gear. I have had several people tell me to put new plug wires on the car so I went ahead and did that. I started up the car and there was absolutely no miss at all. As the car warmed up it started missing (lubbing). I ran it down the road and when the engine was fully warmed it was lubbing just as bad as it ever has. I pulled the plugs:



Cylinder three looks lean. Other than an injector issue (I'm going to try swapping two to see if the lean condition follows the injector) what could be contributing to a single cylinder running lean?

Prypiat

Video of the tailpipe noise -


The engine was mostly warm. It actually looks like white smoke coming from the tailpipe. Timing has now been remedied with the new valve timing gear but the miss persists.

TomCat39

The picture is heavily blue (cyan). Can you get a clear detailed picture with good lighting (sunlight is best) so the coloring of the plugs is accurately displayed?

As it stands, can't tell if that is white or a very light tan or a normal tan in color etc.

Prypiat

I'm not sure what was up with the white balance setting on my phone - These pictures are a lot better, though -






Those plugs don't have 50 miles on them. I replaced the plugs and drove the car earlier. The car pulls great. As good as it ever has since I've had the car. The car has averaged over 40mpg since I bought the car.

50Shades_Red (Honda Civic) | Fuelly

I did do a compression check before I put new(er) plugs in. 150/140/140/140.

TomCat39

Well, this is my take on it. If the plugs are #4 to #1 left to right in the last two pictures, with the compression numbers, I'd say your #4 is dealing with oil consumption Either from rings or valve seals.

I'd say both #1 and #4 are dealing with more oil than #2 and #3. With #2 being the cleanest burning of all.

that's also assuming your compression numbers are from left to right of the motor (#4 to #1). If it's the opposite, then #1 which is also a darker plug is the one with the heavier oil thus the higher compression numbers as I think it's oil control ring problem and the oil is sealing up the rings for the compression test.

The fastest way to see if you have this issue is start the car, bring up the RPM to 2500-3000 for about 45-60 seconds or so then immediately shut the car off.

Pull all four spark plugs, and shine a light down into each cylinder, make sure the gap between the piston and the cylinder wall is dry on all 4 cylinders. If one is not, that is an oil burner.

Assuming all 4 cylinders are dry, you then disconnect the 4 fuel injectors from the harness, and disconnect both plugs from the distributor then you can safely crank the motor for 20-25 seconds without spraying fuel or sparking.

After cranking the motor for 20-25 seconds, check the cylinders again with a flashlight and I suspect either #4 or #1 will have a wet shininess filling the gap between the piston and the cylinder wall. Which ever ones do is the ones burning heavier oil and will cause a mild misfire and could be the "lub" you are hearing when idling.

I'm in the process of experimenting with trying to clear up this exact situation on my D15B7. Not sure if I will be successful but if I do find a change I will let you know all that I have done if you have a similiar situation that your rings aren't controlling the oil on the cylinder walls on a cylinder.

Also, you are better off with the V-power plugs over those platinum plugs your spent more money on.

If you want some good reading on reading spark plugs I found this site and their articles on plugs very informative:

How to read Racing Spark Plugs - Dragstuff
Spark Plug Reading 101 by Mike Canter - Dragstuff
Nitrous Spark Plug Pictures - Dragstuff

P.S. Just listened to your video and that's definitely a misfire. Mine does that upon first start up a bit and usually clears up as the idle drops and the car warms up. I really suspect your 150 compression cylinder is burning oil and causing the misfire.

Prypiat

Excellent reply -

Yes, the compression numbers were listed backwards. I actually measured 180psi on cylinder 4 directly after I swapped the cylinder head. After the engine ran for a while the numbers dropped back down.

The engine was consuming oil before the engine burned the holes in the valves. Sometimes I would have to add a quart per 1-1.5k miles.

Next I'm going to do a leakdown test to verify that the oil isn't coming from the new (reman) cylinder head. If it really is the piston rings I'm going to have three options as I see it -
A) drop the bottom end and replace the piston rings
B) acquire a whole new engine and drop my new cylinder head on it.
C) ditch the car (I drive it as a beater for fuel economy)

Although I love the car. I would rather drive it (It is in desperate need of rims and a paint job) than my newer more presentable vehicle.

Recommendations on which route to take? I really want to do the rings just for the experience. I've got all the tools except for the hone and the ring squeezer..

[edit] Realistically I probably need to scrap the whole car. Even if I fix the engine the car will still need a paint job, body work, and A/C work. The car has nearly 200K on the odo and it looks like it is still on the original master/slave cylinder. The car also hasn't had the clutch replaced in quite a while. One of those two will probably go in the next year or so at the rate I drive the car.

TomCat39

Not only do you have to drop the pan, but you have to pull the head off to get the pistons out.

You also need a ridge reamer to ream the cylinder top of any ridge there is of either carbon or wear or you risk damaging pistons and/or rings getting them out.

Pistons come out the top of the block.

Then to do the bearings you need a dial bore gauge and a good 10,000ths micrometer.

You also should use the dial bore gauge to test for out of round and tapering of the cylinders.

The micrometer alone is 300 dollars for one for a quality one. Another 150 for one dial bore gauge. Haven't looked into the costs for decent cylinder rim reamers.

The cheapest solution really is to get another used engine and swap it in.

You could try the same gig I'm working on and that is using Berryman's B-12 to unstick the rings.

It's a bit of a procedure but it's a cheap option to try.

First I put my problematic piston to BDC and checked with a valve holder and compressed air that the valves were closed (50% of the time it's BDC the valves are closed). I then poured some B-12 into the cylinder and pushed it through the rings with the valve holder and compressed air. I did this a couple of times after I had drained my oil and saved it. I then rinsed a little clean oil through the head to rinse the b-12 out of the pan, plugged her up and put my old oil back in, warmed her up and proceeded to do the seat the rings procedure of loaded rpm up and down a few times.

I then repeated this procedure the next day one more time. The B-12 got to soak into the rings for a good 30 minutes as I changed my intake manifold gasket to OEM gasket.

After that, I was 100 klicks away from my oil change so I put 6 ounces B-12 into my crank case and idled it for about 8 minutes. I have a slight knock when cold as I've compressed the bearings when I detonated pretty badly one day not long ago. The b-12 thinned the oil out enough that the knock didn't go away as the engine warmed up so I stopped it prematurely.

I plan on doing the engine flush again soon, but I will drain my fresh 5w30 out and save it, pour in 3.5 quarts of 20w50 and 6 ounces of B-12 and I will let it idle for 30-45 minutes. The B-12 will thin out the 20w50 enough to run easily through the system and the heavier weight should keep enough to not knock while the cleaning is happening.

I'm hoping with the heavy duty cleaning, the rings will free up and my consumption will go down.

A gallon of the Berryman's B-12 was less than 20 bucks US and I've only used less than a 1/4 of it so far.

I will say, the crap it blew out my exhaust the second treatment was very noticeable and stained the blacktop.

I know I'm hoping for a lot being I've been consuming oil heavily for over two years and am just now trying to clean up the rings. I am not expecting great results but I figure if I don't try, then there is no hope in hell.

You could always give the same method a try if you like. I saw someone else on the Corvair forums (I think) unstick their rings with the Berryman's B-12. It's where I got the method from.

Also of note, after I do the engine "flush" with Berryman's B-12, I will be putting another fresh oil filter on to go with the 5w30 I will put back into the engine.

Prypiat

I there a way to verify, 100%, that the oil is coming from the piston rings versus the valve seals? I actually have valve seals I ordered but didn't use since I assumed the reman cylinder head had new seals in it anyway.

I couldn't determine anything from a leak-down test. Other than the fact that I have zero leakage past my intake or exhaust valves. All the air is coming either from the cylinder head or the crank. I know most of it is coming past the pistons but is there a way to check the valve seals specifically?

TomCat39

Not that I am aware of, you can do the test I posted a couple of posts back with the flashlight.

That can help confirm rings.

I just replaced my seals a few weeks ago and my consumption and smoking after engine braking problem didn't change a bit.

Then I discovered my #4 is oil soaked around the piston quite often.

So I spent 100 bucks on valve seals for no real good reason (2 heads).

It's how I ended up dropping a valve into the cylinder and had to pull the head and use a new head gasket. Also why I ended making a bit of an error that caused the bad detonation for my trip home from work when I put the pedal down for a bit and noticed the horrible sound of detonation.

Valve seals are a dynamic seal so there is no static test for them, unfortunately.

Prypiat

I did your test earlier. Cylinders 4 (and 2 maybe?) Had a significant amount of oil around the edges. Does this mean it is definitely rings and not valve seals?

I have access to an entire machine shops' worth of measuring equipment so i expect i will open up the engine soon and evaluate. If the cylinders are in decent shape I'll do the rings.

One thing - i ran the engine earlier to do the oil test. After i pulled the plugs and rotated the engine a lot of dark smoke came out #4 cylinder. Burning oil im guessing?

TomCat39

Oil around the edges definitely indicates rings are not scraping the excess oil off. There is no vacuum in that test to pull oil through the valve seals. The only other place for it to come from is the rings. The oil passages are beyond the water jacket to be coming from the head gasket, plus you didn't report mixing of any coolant and oil of any sort.

This might be premature, but I've gone through over 3/4 of a tank of gas maybe closer to 7/8 of a tank of gas on my fresh oil and I've consumed less than 1/4 liter and normally I'm adding nearly a liter of oil at this point. It still smells like it's burning oil but I'm not seeing smoke quite as often as I was.

It looks like I may have freed up my oil control ring on #4.

I still plan on doing the 20w50 B-12 engine flush soon to get a good 30 minute idle with the cleaner running through everything. That B-12 is very potent solvent.

I also want to add an oil catch can either before my PCV valve or before the Intake plenum for the high rpm engine braking I tend to do. I believe I have enough blow by that more oil than usual makes it past my breather box and pcv valve. That's what my #2 and #3 intake runners were showing with the oil residue in them when I changed out my intake manifold gasket.

Prypiat

I worked at a small engine shop as a teen. One of the guys "dared" another guy to spray b12 chemtool aerosol on his arm/hand. It wasn't funny when the guy's arm turned red.. He hysterically ran water over the area but was screaming at the burning. That stuff is.. extreme.

You got me thinking about unsticking rings. I sprayed some kroil in the cylinders earlier. Going to let it soak overnight. If i run the engine tomorrow and it is still misfiring she's coming apart.

Also - i did the first half of your test only. Ran car at mid rpm for a minute then checked pistons. I will crank the engine without plugs tomorrow to ensure the oil is coming from the rings.