94 Civic Si

Thanks in advance for your help...

I just put my head back on and fired her up today. Then I noticed some little "splatters" on the front of the block under the #4 cylinder.

Looking underneath, I see this:

94 Civic Si

I don't think it is possible to install the head gasket upside down?

94 Civic Si

New Honda head gasket - new rod bolts.

Torqued rod bolts in sequence as per the FSM - round 1 @ 22 ft/lbs, round 2 @ 63 ft/lbs...

CX-Adam

It is possible to install it upside down (of course I did it) but yours looks right. My gasket that I have in my lap right now has "up" marked on it (yes, I installed it upside down) and it looks like yours is correct.
I've a few minor differences in my gasket ports but, in general, very similar.

CX-Adam

Did you have the head or block machined?
Did you re-install the dowel pins? I've had several reputable people tell me they're not needed but...
Did you oil the head bolt threads and the bottoms of the caps?

94 Civic Si

Okay, thank you! Is your gasket a Honda part? I did not see any marking that indicate "UP", but you might be running a different gasket for forced induction?

94 Civic Si

Yes, I had the head fully rebuilt, including re-surfacing. The machinist said the head was nice and flat and that he trusted the block. He advised me to give a block a pass w/ some 1000 grit sand paper before new gasket.

Dowel pins - yes - in the holes for head bolts # 8 & 10, eh? I think I was complaining in your thread that I could not find these and spent a lot of time looking for them on a week ago.

I did oil head bolt threads as per FSM. Bottom of the caps - you mean the cam caps? I did not put oil on those, but I did see assembly lube in there when I pulled the cams to install the head.

Tell me more about oiling the bottom of the caps and how this could affect me?

Thanks.

94 Civic Si

Are you talking about oil between the head of the bolt and the washer? Like it says in the FSM?

No, I did not do that...

So I likely have incorrect torque on the head gasket?

Can I fix this by removing each head, apply oil and re-torquing in the 2-step sequence - 22 & 63 ft-lbs?

Or are the head bolts junk since I stretched them once? Those little f-ers are ~$10 each from Honda: https://www.hondaacuraonline.com/oem...BlZWQtbWFudWFs

CX-Adam

No. Mine's a cometic 3-ply bi-metal gasket.
When you hit it with the 1000 grit, did you follow the arcs of the bore or did you create scratches that go from the inside out? Any scratches that connect the internal passages with the outside may create a leak path. With the block, rather than sanding, you can use gasoline on a plastic scotchbrite (blue) to dissolve the old head gasket material that's stuck on. (Saw this on a nthefastlane video last night).

I doubt the torque is off enough to cause the problem. The effects of not lubricating the head is minor compared to threads (significantly lower surface area). The bolts are fine. There are a ton of people that reuse the bolts that have thousands of miles on them with no issues. You don't need to buy new ones. Since it sounds like you have to remove the head again anyways, just make sure to lubricate them.
If you need a new head gasket, let me know. I torqued this cometic one once and then replaced it when I removed my head to install my dowels.

TomCat39

Just like I posted in your other thread in the machining section, this hasn't been mentioned from what I can see:

Also it's good to go back and recheck the middle two head bolts at the final torque after you have done the sequence to the outside bolts.

94 Civic Si

When I used the 1000 grit, I wrapped a wood block and went across - from 1 to 4 a few times. I saw the sand paper get some color to it and figured that was good.

The machinist warned me specifically against using discs on a drill as he said he has seen people ruin blocks that way. There was very little gasket debris on the block when I took the head off. I remember when I loosened the last head bolt I heard a slight noise of the head and block separating.

I plan on talking to the machinist tomorrow and see what he thinks. If I need to simply pull the bolts, oil them, and re-torque, that is a lot better than pulling the head gasket.

I don't know... Thanks for your help! So you have an extra head gasket? If it has been torqued once, do you think it will seal? If I have to do this a 3rd time I will not be right in the head...

94 Civic Si

Thanks TC - I did not go back and check the first/middle 2 head bolts, but that makes perfect sense after torquing the rest!

Are you able to merge the 2 threads and keep all the content? Should we do that? I would be happy in whichever section you deem appropriate...

94 Civic Si

Do I read this correctly that you installed head without the dowels once? Did that not work out?

JRCivic1

It is NOT OK to install the cylinder head without the alignment dowels... the dowels insure proper alignment of the head chambers directly over the sleeve/piston. Misalignment here increases the risk of valve to piston contact and magnifies the opportunity for pre-ignition due to glowing sharp edges of the combustion chamber or cylinder sleeve.

Oil on the threads and under the bolt head/washer insure proper torque is applied throughout the head. The FSM illustrates a "center out" torque sequence... and one extra step I include personally is to go back to the middle and re-torque each bolt in the original sequence over until ALL ten bolts "click" at the current step torque value. I then move to the next step. I have had great success through the years using three steps on a "B" series... 22, 40, and finally 63 ft/lbs.

94 Civic Si

Thank you. I was asking because I spent what felt like an insane amount of time looking for the dowels last weekend when I started the re-assembly in earnest.

I did use the FSM pattern, but now wish I had a) oiled the heads of the bolts, and b) gone back and re-torqued the pattern.

Any opinions on if I can just go back and re-Torque the gasket that is in there?

TomCat39

I wouldn't being that it has leaked.

If it had sealed, I have seen some people that have reused their HG several times until it is no longer in spec for the compressed thickness.

However, I do not know if they are doing that with the coated MLS gaskets.

Anyways, being the gasket didn't seal, I wouldn't trust that whatever flaws let it leak would or didn't cause paths for future failures.

JRCivic1

The generally accepted test for a "go - no go" on using a head gasket again is have you run the engine up to operating temperature ??? If yes, you replace the head gasket if the head comes off. Re-torquing the head bolts does not require the head gasket be changed, but you have to keep the head still... so be gentle. If you don't have dowel pins installed... pull the head and get some.

TomCat39

Yeah, that's the general consensus here on H-T and most DIY sites.

Where I found people who contradicted this is racers and their track cars. Probably because the motor is ripped down after every race. Like my old neighbor. His 4 banger dirt race car was constantly ripped down and put back together.

It's those people who do like I shared, re-use until it doesn't meet thickness specs they require.

Then again, their parts are not meant to last 10+ years a shot etc....

94 Civic Si

Dowel pins are in there.