b7 and zc debate
02-07-2010, 06:18 PM
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b7 and zc debate
my friend has a zc block and a b7 block that hes willing to sell me for my all motor build.. the zc will b 125 and has no problems wit walls he said it look brand new. the b7 will be 75 walls will need to b bored. i have a z6 in my hatch. the question is which block should i get. im gonna go all out. if i get the b7 im not sure bout valve to piston clearnce if i used d16 internals. i cant find d15 internals.. http://www.dh-racing.com/pistons.html.. i wanna get these rods and pistons.. so wat will b the best way to go... so b7 or zc wats the best setup
02-09-2010, 04:59 PM
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Re: b7 and zc debate
well the z6 is runnin and i dont have money for another daily driver.. so i wanna buy another block and build that.. i was gonna use the z6 head though wen i get close to done and ill build that up
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02-11-2010, 07:00 PM
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Re: b7 and zc debate
its a sohc zc.. he blew th engine but the walls and **** r good.. he was goin 105 in 4th for a mile.. car didnt like that and blew up.. so i wanna get it and build a bad na high comp d16
02-12-2010, 03:52 AM
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Re: b7 and zc debate
i dont wanna do a bseries every one does those..
gotta be different
.. i want to go high comp d
series like i said before. so im not sure if i sould
get the zc ot the b7
gotta be different
.. i want to go high comp d series like i said before. so im not sure if i sould
get the zc ot the b7
02-12-2010, 08:27 AM
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Re: b7 and zc debate
2nd, i hate to burst you bubble but a D series is EXTREMELY cost ineffective when going N/A. you will spend at least twice as much money getting a D to similar HP and torque levels as a GSR...........compared to what it would cost to swap in a GSR.......probly alot more MORE. getting a D series to 200bhp N/A in my estimate would take well over 5k(if you already have the complete engine).....probly closer to 10K. its entirely possible with a hefty budget, but unless you have 5-10 grand sitting around id forget about the whole thing and swap in a B.
i know everyone does B swaps........but if it were at all easy to do a N/A build on a D and get some good results dont you think youd hear more about them? i understand that you just want to do this to do it, but i think you will spend alot of money and not get as far as you had hoped.
im willing to answer any questions you have, so if theres anything else go ahead and ask.
02-12-2010, 09:23 AM
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Re: b7 and zc debate
well thats not true at all... You can get a z6 and put zc pistons in the block with new rings and bearings and slap the head on it and have 150whp with about 120wtq if tuned right and this has been proven a million times. Hondatunning did a whole write up on it... and you can get the pistons, rings, bearings and, full gasket kit on ebay for $210 shipped. I just built one last week for a kid i work with and it goes good... and if you have like $1000 maybe $1500 you can get a stage 2 crowler cam, crowler valve train, port n polish, skunk 2 intake mani and, blox throttle body and make 200whp if tuned right, or you could go with the stage 3 cam and a little more tuning and be around 240whp. the tune is the biggest part about it though
Now id go with a 1.6 block cuz the 1.5 rods are weaker, and the bearings are smaller so your more likely to spin a bearing and the deck height is diff so you cant use the zc pistons... so all 2gether you might have 1500 into a z6 and rape b16's and gsr's... b16's are 160hp and 110 torque at the crank and a gsr is 180hp and like 125ish torque at the crank so you'd have more for less considering a gsr is like $3200.
Now don't get me wrong i like b series i own a few of them but d series are cheaper and can make good power and its funny when you beat the haters with them
Now id go with a 1.6 block cuz the 1.5 rods are weaker, and the bearings are smaller so your more likely to spin a bearing and the deck height is diff so you cant use the zc pistons... so all 2gether you might have 1500 into a z6 and rape b16's and gsr's... b16's are 160hp and 110 torque at the crank and a gsr is 180hp and like 125ish torque at the crank so you'd have more for less considering a gsr is like $3200.
Now don't get me wrong i like b series i own a few of them but d series are cheaper and can make good power and its funny when you beat the haters with them
02-12-2010, 09:43 AM
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Re: b7 and zc debate
^^ Sounds like you believe to much of what you read! D series are NOT power house engines!!
Have you sat down to really see what kind of N/A power a built up d series makes? They have short and peaky power bands.....so the max hp on a graph is more like a blip, NOT constant.....and no, they won't rape B16 and B18's.
Your talking 200whp and gobbs of torque from a d series? Don't think so!
I will defend a d series engine and say that older ones were the best quality and made decent power for what they are for sure, but n/a, they are not that great for what you put into them.
Did you know that a dohc cylinder head, stock for stock against a sohc head flows 30% more air! Did you ever stop to think why Honda uses dohc engine on ALL of there high end 4 cylinder powered cars...hmmmm
What else kills me about a subject like this, is the fact that swapping out a sensible b swap (that's why everyone does it, especially N/A)....is the fact that used engine and tranny combo's can be had so cheap these days!
My last swap was a 96 civic cx hatch. I spent a $1000 and got B20Z, LS tranny, axels, ecu and shift linkage...and dropped it in. There were only 2 mods, lightweight flywheel and exhaust header. The swap was making 120whp by 3200rpm....rose up to 141hp by 4500rpm and help close that way till about 6800rpm....talk about power band and drivability... d series won't do that!
There are so many deals out there if you look around and are patient. Last week a bout a full B18C1 long block for $200.....guess what, it's better bang than building a D
Have you sat down to really see what kind of N/A power a built up d series makes? They have short and peaky power bands.....so the max hp on a graph is more like a blip, NOT constant.....and no, they won't rape B16 and B18's.
Your talking 200whp and gobbs of torque from a d series? Don't think so!
I will defend a d series engine and say that older ones were the best quality and made decent power for what they are for sure, but n/a, they are not that great for what you put into them.
Did you know that a dohc cylinder head, stock for stock against a sohc head flows 30% more air! Did you ever stop to think why Honda uses dohc engine on ALL of there high end 4 cylinder powered cars...hmmmm
What else kills me about a subject like this, is the fact that swapping out a sensible b swap (that's why everyone does it, especially N/A)....is the fact that used engine and tranny combo's can be had so cheap these days!
My last swap was a 96 civic cx hatch. I spent a $1000 and got B20Z, LS tranny, axels, ecu and shift linkage...and dropped it in. There were only 2 mods, lightweight flywheel and exhaust header. The swap was making 120whp by 3200rpm....rose up to 141hp by 4500rpm and help close that way till about 6800rpm....talk about power band and drivability... d series won't do that!
There are so many deals out there if you look around and are patient. Last week a bout a full B18C1 long block for $200.....guess what, it's better bang than building a D
02-12-2010, 12:18 PM
#16
Honda-Tech Member
Re: b7 and zc debate
^^ Sounds like you believe to much of what you read! D series are NOT power house engines!!
Have you sat down to really see what kind of N/A power a built up d series makes? They have short and peaky power bands.....so the max hp on a graph is more like a blip, NOT constant.....and no, they won't rape B16 and B18's.
Your talking 200whp and gobbs of torque from a d series? Don't think so!
I will defend a d series engine and say that older ones were the best quality and made decent power for what they are for sure, but n/a, they are not that great for what you put into them.
Did you know that a dohc cylinder head, stock for stock against a sohc head flows 30% more air! Did you ever stop to think why Honda uses dohc engine on ALL of there high end 4 cylinder powered cars...hmmmm
What else kills me about a subject like this, is the fact that swapping out a sensible b swap (that's why everyone does it, especially N/A)....is the fact that used engine and tranny combo's can be had so cheap these days!
My last swap was a 96 civic cx hatch. I spent a $1000 and got B20Z, LS tranny, axels, ecu and shift linkage...and dropped it in. There were only 2 mods, lightweight flywheel and exhaust header. The swap was making 120whp by 3200rpm....rose up to 141hp by 4500rpm and help close that way till about 6800rpm....talk about power band and drivability... d series won't do that!
There are so many deals out there if you look around and are patient. Last week a bout a full B18C1 long block for $200.....guess what, it's better bang than building a D
Have you sat down to really see what kind of N/A power a built up d series makes? They have short and peaky power bands.....so the max hp on a graph is more like a blip, NOT constant.....and no, they won't rape B16 and B18's.
Your talking 200whp and gobbs of torque from a d series? Don't think so!
I will defend a d series engine and say that older ones were the best quality and made decent power for what they are for sure, but n/a, they are not that great for what you put into them.
Did you know that a dohc cylinder head, stock for stock against a sohc head flows 30% more air! Did you ever stop to think why Honda uses dohc engine on ALL of there high end 4 cylinder powered cars...hmmmm
What else kills me about a subject like this, is the fact that swapping out a sensible b swap (that's why everyone does it, especially N/A)....is the fact that used engine and tranny combo's can be had so cheap these days!
My last swap was a 96 civic cx hatch. I spent a $1000 and got B20Z, LS tranny, axels, ecu and shift linkage...and dropped it in. There were only 2 mods, lightweight flywheel and exhaust header. The swap was making 120whp by 3200rpm....rose up to 141hp by 4500rpm and help close that way till about 6800rpm....talk about power band and drivability... d series won't do that!
There are so many deals out there if you look around and are patient. Last week a bout a full B18C1 long block for $200.....guess what, it's better bang than building a D
Listen to Deetz, he knows his stuff. I completely agree.
OP, if your hell bent on building that D, build it for Boost. You will get a lot more power for your money. But then again I guess you wouldn't want to build a D for boost since "A LOT" of people do it. If you want to build a D N/A just to be different which will require TONS of money to get any "decent" WHP then by all means go for it, but from a "realistic" view..its stupid.
A B-Series swap is so popular to put into a 92-00 Civic because it has been proven and generally are better starting platforms. I don't have anything against Ds, I liked my old D16Z6, but I like my LS better.
02-13-2010, 07:55 AM
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Re: b7 and zc debate
^^ Sounds like you believe to much of what you read! D series are NOT power house engines!!
Have you sat down to really see what kind of N/A power a built up d series makes? They have short and peaky power bands.....so the max hp on a graph is more like a blip, NOT constant.....and no, they won't rape B16 and B18's.
Your talking 200whp and gobbs of torque from a d series? Don't think so!
I will defend a d series engine and say that older ones were the best quality and made decent power for what they are for sure, but n/a, they are not that great for what you put into them.
Did you know that a dohc cylinder head, stock for stock against a sohc head flows 30% more air! Did you ever stop to think why Honda uses dohc engine on ALL of there high end 4 cylinder powered cars...hmmmm
What else kills me about a subject like this, is the fact that swapping out a sensible b swap (that's why everyone does it, especially N/A)....is the fact that used engine and tranny combo's can be had so cheap these days!
My last swap was a 96 civic cx hatch. I spent a $1000 and got B20Z, LS tranny, axels, ecu and shift linkage...and dropped it in. There were only 2 mods, lightweight flywheel and exhaust header. The swap was making 120whp by 3200rpm....rose up to 141hp by 4500rpm and help close that way till about 6800rpm....talk about power band and drivability... d series won't do that!
There are so many deals out there if you look around and are patient. Last week a bout a full B18C1 long block for $200.....guess what, it's better bang than building a D
Have you sat down to really see what kind of N/A power a built up d series makes? They have short and peaky power bands.....so the max hp on a graph is more like a blip, NOT constant.....and no, they won't rape B16 and B18's.
Your talking 200whp and gobbs of torque from a d series? Don't think so!
I will defend a d series engine and say that older ones were the best quality and made decent power for what they are for sure, but n/a, they are not that great for what you put into them.
Did you know that a dohc cylinder head, stock for stock against a sohc head flows 30% more air! Did you ever stop to think why Honda uses dohc engine on ALL of there high end 4 cylinder powered cars...hmmmm
What else kills me about a subject like this, is the fact that swapping out a sensible b swap (that's why everyone does it, especially N/A)....is the fact that used engine and tranny combo's can be had so cheap these days!
My last swap was a 96 civic cx hatch. I spent a $1000 and got B20Z, LS tranny, axels, ecu and shift linkage...and dropped it in. There were only 2 mods, lightweight flywheel and exhaust header. The swap was making 120whp by 3200rpm....rose up to 141hp by 4500rpm and help close that way till about 6800rpm....talk about power band and drivability... d series won't do that!
There are so many deals out there if you look around and are patient. Last week a bout a full B18C1 long block for $200.....guess what, it's better bang than building a D
to the OP, if you are serious about a N/A d build you need this basic list of things to have any chance at decent power.
1)increase displacement....bore it for sure, stroke it if you can. boring helps the head flow better.
2)head work(PnP, 5-angle valve job, valvetrain thats good for at least 8000rpm because rpm is the easiest way to make more hp. have the head completely checked and fixed(not warped, valve guides arent tapered or out of round, valve guides are centered in the valve seat)
3)stronger bottom end(rods, pistons, crank) so it wont grenade when you get to 8k or so. and balanced. and you need to have your block completely cleaned and checked out. theres a long list of things(mains for straightness and out of round, cylinders perpendicular to the mains, deack perpendicular to the mains, cylinders for taper and out of round)
4)high compression id say 11.5-12:1 which you should be able to run on 93 with a good tune.
5)very aggressive cam so you can flow enough air........ which means youll have to check for things like coil bind in your valve springs and piston to valve clearance
6)A/C delete isnt worth much BUT building a D you need everything you can get.
7)adjustable cam gear so you can dial in your cam timing
8)IM and TB designed for high rpm
9)Header and exhaust designed for high rpm.......and no this doesnt mean "as big as you can get"
10)portmatching.....TB-IM, IM-Head, Head-Header
those things i mentioned on the block and head that need to be checked might only be half of the things that need to be checked. BUT any of those things can rob power......so they all need to be checked and fixed.
ive seen a V8 on a engine dyno make 600hp, they disassembled it, had the mains line-honed then reassembled it and it made 607hp..........that kinda stuff makes a difference.
sorry i dont have any specific parts to recommend. but thats the basics, high compression, high rpm, more displacement, and a head that will flow enough air for it all.
02-13-2010, 01:20 PM
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Re: b7 and zc debate
yea thats understandable even the oil u sue can make u gain or lose hp.. friction is your enemy.. im gonna go al out.. im doin most of the work my self and ive got friends that can help with some stuff.. im goin to school this summer for high peformance automotive.. they have all the machines i need.. i will probably go with some of the bishimoto parts like cam and gear.. not sure bout valve train.. water meth injection and wet shot of nos
02-13-2010, 01:48 PM
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Re: b7 and zc debate
zc block is basically a a6 block i had a sohc zc in my crx hf all motor runnin 15.4 with a si trans, intake and exhaust..the car was all gutted out but zc block would be better then the b7 aspecially all motor the extra displacment will help alot
02-13-2010, 01:56 PM
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Re: b7 and zc debate
now i also read the t u can put a d17 crank in a d16.. is it worth it? also can i use the stick crank?.. wouldnt it hold up to 8k? i saw they said they will hold up to like 600hp
02-14-2010, 08:54 AM
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Re: b7 and zc debate
are you kidding me... ive been building street and track hondas since i was in high school. im not some noob... i also tune and build just about every fast honda around here. like i said i wasn't talking crap about b series at all. My summer car happes to have a built lsv in it. but i also i know for a fact that the motor im talking about will deff rape a stock b16 and gsr... you guys only say it wont because it would **** you guys off 2 see a $1200 sohc walk on your $3200 gsr swap that you just slapped in you car. Any mut can do a swap... it takes alot more talent and know how 2 build a motor and tune it correctly... I have a buddy that has a d16z6 that we built similar to the one im talking about that walks on 06 and up SI's. and its not the driver... ya a built gsr or lsv will walk on a sohc but what i was simply getting at was for someone thats on a budget a sohc is a cheap way to make pretty good power considering the size of the motor and what it was to begin with...
02-14-2010, 09:01 AM
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02-14-2010, 10:26 AM
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Re: b7 and zc debate
hell yea american muscle gettin its *** handed to it by our lil "rice burners".. nice car dude that wat i want to do right there