turtlegrip

Short version:
My car died while driving and now it is getting no fuel thru injectors. I think I blew my main relay and ecu.

Long version:
I have been having hesitation problems, got a code 3, went to HMO (where i got engine ~4 years ago) and get another MAP sensor. Worked great for 2 days. Today I was driving and it started to hesitate really bad then died. Has not started since.

Checked all related fuses. I checked for spark, the 2 i checked were nice and bright, checked spark plug wire resistance with 3k-6k ohm. Checked fuel, nothing in any cylinder. Took fuel rail off and removed send line, lots of fuel while priming, then checked each injector and nothing came out while cranking (had dizzy unplugged).

Checked ohms on injectors all 11.2. Checked volts to the injector clips, the colors werent right according to helms, but each had battery voltage to body ground. Went to check the volts to the corresponding ECU terminals and couldnt without service plug. (multimeter prongs would not fit).

Then I looked at the main relay, picture below, and i cannot tell if it looks bad from those small corrosion marks. And being the fool I am I plugged it back in to see if I could smell any burning and I let it short out on a piece of metal... Before this the main relay was clicking and priming fuel pump. But i read that it can click and still not properly send signal to injectors...



Now the CEL stays on with no read out even with the jumper in the service prong. Havent tried to start it again. I have no car to get to my university finals all this week. Looking forward to taking the bus for a while. Any suggestions? new main relay, ECU, injectors? Really looking forward to some help, Ive searched for days (since hesitation started) with nothing working/helping, have been going through helms troubleshooting to no avail. I had similar problems one year ago and new MAP sensor, grounds and a blown fuse 15 fixed the problem, doesnt seems nearly as simple this time...

Stock B16B (HMO)
D16Y8 Wire harness
PCT ECU (OBD2a)
Walbro 255L Fuel Pump
ITR dizzy
NGK spark wires
NGK BKR7EIX-11 Iridium IX Spark Plug
Everything else on it is stock
**I have another civic I can swap parts from but they are all D series so that wont help on ECU and I dont think it will help with injectors either.

turtlegrip

Just to note, when I have time I plan on trying to redo the grounds, and sand down the t-stat ground (not sure how I would replace it). Do you think I could just check the resistance of my grounds instead of replacing them? They are all 1/0 gauge wire I put in one year ago and that stuff is a bit pricey (im poor). I just really hope I didnt fry my ECU along with my main relay.... After i redo the grounds I will try a friends main relay and see if anything changes.

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

Pull the injectors, and connect them each individually to a 9 volt battery. When you tap the lead, do you hear it click?

Rapidfire000

you need five things to start a car,
1. air
2. fuel
3.spark
4. compression
5. timing

you have ruled out the spark and the air so i am going to say. Check your timing and compression, i had the same problem as you. My timing was off by two teeth

turtlegrip

This afternoon I did the 9v battery test on injectors, each one have a nice click.

I checked timing right after this happened, its not perfect but its the way its always been. If you look at these pictures you can kind of tell that the crank is about a mm past the TDC line up when the cams are perfect, but if I moved everything one tooth over it would be a lot worse. Its just slightly worse than it looks in the picture but this wasnt giving me a problem before and like I said the car was running fine then just hesitated and died, wouldnt mechanical timing off not go from running to hesitation to running to dead?




Today I also took the grounds off (VC/tranny/tstat) and sanded down the mounting point and the connector and the VC/tranny grounds both measured about 0-0.01 ohms. (battery is in trunk and has a 4 and 1/0 ground to the same spot, I will clean those next time I do anything but if that was ever the problem I dont think it is the main one now).

Checked all the fuses under the hood and fuse 13 and 15 under the dash and nothing was blown (did not check for voltage). I also put in a known working main relay (drove working civic up, took it out, tried it, put it back in the working civic, it drove away) and when turning the key there was power to the dash, no click from relay, no fuel pump and the engine would crank but I am assuming no fuel still (since no relay click from known good main relay).

Checked voltage on main relay harness; nodes 2, 1 have battery, turned ignition ON and 2, 5 have 0.1 volts not battery, and 2, 1 still had battery voltage. Next I left ignition on and checked fuel injector plugs to body ground, they each had about 0.1 volts, not battery voltage. (They had battery voltage yesterday before I shorted the main relay on a piece of metal).

As of right now, with a good main relay in the car, when I turn ignition on there is no relay click, no fuel pump, little voltage to injectors and the CEL comes and stays on. CEL does not blink even the normal one time, it is just steady and constant and when I jump the 2p service plug and turn the car on there is still no blinking at all just a solid steady CEL light.

As of now I am extremely busy with school so I am trying things when I can and this weekend will likely try getting a new ECU as it seems that would be my next best step. I did buy a insulation piercing clip for my Fluke multimeter so if you have any good write ups on checking the ECU that would be great. I know I saw a few the other day so I will try finding one of them again myself and work on that before I rush to get a new ECU.

Anymore suggestions would be great!!

Edit: I should mention that a few days ago, right after the hesitation started, I tried putting on my old dizzy and crank it and something went very wrong and the intake cam jumped about 45 degrees off (many teeth) but right after I heard the noise I opened it up and redid the timing belt and the car was running fine after that with the little hesitation I had been having which came and went (mostly felt under 3500 RPM). It was the day after this that I got the new MAP sensor. It ran fine for 2 days after the new MAP sensor and then died yesterday. I know this is bad but the timing has stayed fine since. (Checked twice, once the next day and then again after it died on me). Also I do not think this would stop the fuel injectors from spraying?

tony_2018

Did you install distributor correctly, all spark plug wires in correctly?

turtlegrip

Yes, spark was fine. If you are referring the the edit on my last post, idk what happened with that dizzy but everything was fixed after that. My problem was my fuel injectors were not spraying, but now it looks like I blew my ECU or it was going bad all along idk... I found the troubleshooting diagram for ECU in my service book so I will do that this weekend and let everyone know what happens. I will keep checking for any suggestions in the mean time.

Mainly looking for suggestions of what could have been wrong before i ruined my ecu. i dont want to buy a new one and have the same problem. I guess i could check continuity for my whole harness or just cough up enough for the cheaper mil-spec rywire harness...

tony_2018

Yeah well if your engine harness is hacked up than wires could be crossing and that might've caused it to go. So thoroughly make sure that ecu is dead. Start up your buddies car with that ecu and see if it runs. If it does than you got other issues.

turtlegrip

I dont know anyone else with a B16B or even a B16A so I am SOL as far as b-series exchanges go. I only repinned the couple wires I needed to on the ECU and relocated the O2 sensor plug. I think I did a pretty good job. While I have nothing else to do with the car though might as well go through and check/redo some of the wiring. I also have a JDM ITR (km/h) cluster that I repinned so I guess I can check all that out too.

I should probably focus on the main relay and fuel related wires since my problem was no fuel through the injectors?

Cabletie

did you checked the fuel pump relay?

turtlegrip

Fuel pump was priming and the rail was getting pressure (i dont know how much exactly but it popped off the injectors when I wasnt holding them and sent fuel flying out the filter when the banjo bolt was off). But the it something else I should maybe check once I figure out my ECU problem. I have found quite a few more post trouble shooting what seem to be similar issues so I will go through those also on saturday and see what I can find.

turtlegrip

Quick update. I had a minute to look at car while waiting for a ride.

Fuse 31 was blown, apart... I am guessing from shorting the main relay. I did not have a 7.5A so I put a 10A in there for now. Still no change in anything. Relay doesnt click on and CEL light stays on solid and constant. I was looking for the LED light on the ECU but I do not have one. But I guess I will just wait until I have time to troubleshoot the ECU (ohm/voltage tests).

Can anyone tell me if it is a bad idea to use insulation piercing probes on the wire harness near the ECU plugs? What if I electrical tape each spot?

Jrodseg6

Seems like the relay is stuck when it was shorted out. But seems like there's a bigger problem than that. I had a friend who had the same issue and after endless days of trouble shooting he replaced the fuel pump and it started right up. I don't know why but it worked.

turtlegrip

Possibly not enough pressure even though its working I am guessing. Ill have to rent a pressure reader or just buy one for the rail. The pump does sound like a dying animal. So that is definitely worth looking into and what I should have done first probably.

turtlegrip

Had time to go through the car and check every ground (~.001-.002 ohm) and every fuse (3 blown) and replace them. Went through the ECU with my multimeter and had good voltage at all injectors and good grounds (~.002-.005 ohm).

Engine started up but still had the hesitation problem (only idled) but now it was making a funny noise... checked around for a minute and the fuel pressure regulator is making the strangest bubbling/dripping noise. Pretty sure that is the root of my problems now. But would that make the fuel pump sound funny too? Going to try a few tests tomorrow and possibly rent a fuel pressure gauge and plan on getting a new one Monday (assuming it is my problem).

Video of noise, some feedback or thoughts would be very helpful:

http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/ne...595e9.mp4.html



edit: just went out to try unplugging the vacuum line to FPR to see if gas came out and the engine just bogged down and died after less than a minute of running. before that it ran for 15 minutes while i reset ecu. then it would barely start after that. more troubleshooting tomorrow.

turtlegrip

Got a fuel pressure gauge and it read between 20-30 psi after the fuel filter at priming and running. Engine runs okay for a minute but high rpm and then eventually bogs down and dies. After a few times of this it doesnt start at all.
In the picture below there was a screw not screwed in under the plastic cap thing on the fuel rail so i screwed that in and it made no difference. I have no idea what that thing is.
FPR is still making the weird noise and unplugging the vacuum line seems to help a little but only sometimes. Should I replace the fuel pump? I really dont wanna just start buying parts and hope something works. Does anyone have any advice? I think I just need to get it towed to a mechanic...

tony_2018

I'm pretty sure your fuel pressure is suppose to be higher than that at idle. That bolt you are talking about at the end needs to be tighten down, not hand tighten.

turtlegrip

Yes it should e a bit higher, so I guess I will get a fuel filter since thats cheap and then maybe need to get a new fuel pump/fuel pressure regulator. Maybe the fuel pressure regulator is just making that noise because the fuel pump is going bad?

Under that plastic cap? It was more of a small screw than a bolt but I screwed it on decently i didnt wanna snap it since it was so tiny. What is it? And how could it have completely come off...

visiblystealthy

iTrader: (1)

Sounds like bad fuel pump/clogged filter. Replace filter first, it's cheaper.

turtlegrip

Problem fixed! Bad fuel pump.

This morning I replaced fuel filter [OEM(mine was only 1 year old "Wix" i found the receipt)], 3 spark plugs (they shipped one wrong one...), checked a bunch of sensors and then put a friends fuel pump in my car and it started and ran great. Drove with that fuel pump to make sure that the problem was solved and bought a new Walbro 255. Spent around 120$ for everything so not so bad, I guess I just tuned up my car even though I didnt plan on it.

In retrospect I should have followed my gut at the start and not messed with the ECU and relays and just rented a fuel pressure tester and worked from there, I could have made my problem way, way worse.

Moral of the story: dont drive around on an empty tank all the time.

Here is a video of what was going on in case someone wants to reference this. Its quite so you might need to turn the volume up to hear the fuel pump/exhaust. I guess the FPR was making that noise because of a lack of fuel.

I probably wont be checking the forum everyday since the car is fixed >_>
I am sure I will be very missed lmao...

tony_2018

If you had followed through with inspecting components like we asked in a timely manner this would've been long over with.

turtlegrip

Could you be more specific or are you just trying to look cool?

Dizzy and wires were always correct, the brief problem had nothing to do with my question at hand...

FP should be higher? Thanks for pointing out what I put in the post you are responding to, very informative! Everything I tighten is with a torque wrench to spec and I was talking about the "diaphragm" screw, I believe, you were of no help what so ever. Thanks for responding!