Honda Civic / Del Sol (1992 - 2000) EG/EH/EJ/EK/EM1 Discussion

Another KORBACH FRAME LOCK REVIEW

 
Old 09-20-2004, 04:03 PM
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Default Another KORBACH FRAME LOCK REVIEW

I was recently in contact with people from Korbach about testing their newly released frame locks. There's been quite a bit of debate on this new product as to whether it lives up to the claims posted from other testers on Honda-Tech and ClubSi. So I decided to test the frame locks for myself.

If you're not sure what frame locks are, pick up the September Honda Tuning article. There is a 6 page review and description on them. Also, check out KorbackPerformance.com for details.

First off, here's a picture of the product.



They come in a very nice foam case, each piece fitted in its own precut slot. Presentation gets an A+.

The instruction manual is also very high grade. Pictures of what to do, and also what to avoid doing duing the install, make this install the most straight forward I have ever done on a car. I only found one step that was vague (which holes to drill to which size), but the pictures helped enough. Otherwise, the only benefit I could see to adding to the manual would be having it in color.

I'm not going into how to install the product, as that is what the instruction manual is for. Also, plenty of other reviews walk this through in great detail. Why be redundant?

I will share some pictures to show the finished product.




Install was ~1 hour. It took me longer since I had to purchase a longer extension for my socket wrench. This also would have been a nice note to add to the manual before starting.

The forethought for the shadetree mechanic being able to install this item is excelling. Breakaway pieces where the bolts go have pilot holes so you will get everything centered just right. No room for someone to claim they weren't sure if the frame locks were installed correctly or not. It's idiot-proof. On places where you can't hold a nut in place to tighten the bolts, Korbach supplies the nuts on a stick so you can reach the nut where it needs to go. And everything lines up perfectly.
For example, where you see the black square and the hole:



You drill this hole to fish the nut on a stick behind the frame to the middle of the frame lock. Otherwise there's no way to get the nut behind the frame. It's works out perfect.

So the install is easy and straightforward. All you need is a drill (if cordless, make sure to have two charged batteries as you'll go through them drilling), a basic socket wrench set, and torque wrench.

Now to the testing. I have heard many varied claims from Korbach and other reviewers. For example, Korbach claims:
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> * Lateral stiffness is increased
* Understeer is virtually eliminated; youíll feel as if youíve achieved a 50/50 balance between your carís front and back end
* Turning is responsive and precise
* Onramp cornering is improved
* A more unified structure will eliminate excess front-end vibration
* A sturdier structure will reduce the effects of engine shake
* High speed driving feels smoother and more in-control
* Potholes will lose their unexpected jolt
* The harsh ride you get from lowering your car and stiffening your springs will disappear
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I've bolded what I noticed as a difference. The main advantage is the tighter steering. On my test drives, one road I took was called Spiral Highway. Imagine the highways people drift on in Japan. It's very similar. I did a run a few days before the frame lock install and then immediately after the install. I could take the wider corners quite a bit quicker without feeling like I would lose control. And to put in perspective how I pushed my car, I did lose control once. It was a hairpin recommended at 20mph (according to the highway sign) and I couldn't hold it at 60mph. Otherwise the whole trip of switchbacks could be taken at ~55mph during 20-25mph recommend corners without grip loss, whereas before I would start to lose control 45-50mph. That may not look like much of a difference, but losing grip at 50 and being very solid still at 55 is a good change.

Steering goes where you point the car. No more little adjustments I was used to in taking wide, fast corners. Where the car was pointed, it would go.

The framelocks also reduce harshness while driving. A few reviewers said they saw day and night differences immediately driving in town. That is quite an exaggeration. Hitting potholes and railroad tracks doesn't shake nearly as much, but daily driving still is going to be unaffected. You still feel bumps in the road. Another review said wheel hop was eliminated in burnouts. That is also false.

Unfortunately, the framelocks did not remove any wheel shake at 70mph.

Other claims I've seen is the 50/50 weight distribution feel. This was much more noticeable adding a rear tie bar into the equation. My first two rides on Spiral Highway with and without the framelocks did not include a rear tie bar. The third trip did, and it helped keep the rear end from swinging out as much. Now if the frame locks multiplied the effect of a cheap eBay tie bar is yet to be deteremined.
So in conclusion. the frame locks work fairly close as to how they're described. I believe a ride quality difference would be seen much more so on a stock suspension.
The current selling price for the frame locks is $195 until October. Normal retail through Korbach is $250. I paid $70 and believe it is worth every penny now having driven on the frame locks for 5 days. Would I pay $200 for the frame locks? Yes. They've given me more noticeable improvement than $150 strut bars have. Is it worth the normal asking price of $250? Yes, if you can afford it. It may look like some simple pieces of metal, but until you see the engineering into these pieces you cannot appreicate them fully.

For reference and to answer other random questions I think will be asked:

What is my car setup?

1998 Honda Civic Ex 4dr 5 speed D16Y8
KYB AGX adjustable struts
Neuspeed Sport springs 1.75" F 1.5" R
Neuspeed front strut bar
eBay rear tie bar
Speedy Lite 6 17x7 wheels (16lbs)
Hankook Ventus H405 205/40/17 tires
1 degree F 2.7 degrees R camber

Are framelocks available for my car?

They're only available for 96-00 Civics, but I know other models are under developement.

Am I paid off for this review?

No. The guys at Korbach were really stressing to be as critical as possible in the review. And I was. Plus, you can trust one of your critical HondaSwap.com moderators to not feed you any bs.

How do the framelocks work?

Here is a quote from David Lawson, an engineer for Korbach Performance:

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">WHY THE FRAME LOCKS WORK
Frame Locks quickens the steering response by increasing the lateral (side) stiffness of the front frame. Visualize a car going into a sharp turn. As this occurs, the road surface exerts a lateral load to your front tires at the tire patch. In an extreme turn your tires will want to scrub out to the side. The lateral load of the tires will translate a lateral load to the suspension which in turns translates a lateral load to the front frame. The front frame of the car will flex and the time it takes to flex will result in a lagged response of the steering. Although the time it takes to flex may not seem to be significant. In actuality it is. For example at 40 mph, a vehicle is traveling at 58 feet/second. The simple calculations are as follows: [40 miles/hr x 5280 ft/mile] / [60 minutes/hour x 60 seconds/minute]) = 58 ft/sec. If stiffening the front frame results in a reduction of flex time of even 1/10th of a second, that translates to 5.8 ft of vehicle travel which is significant.

The Civic is great car and the rigidity of its chassis is above par for itís price class. However, it was not designed by the OEM to be a high performance car. Thatís why there is a huge after market industry to cater to driving enthusiasts wanting more out of their Civics.

The front lateral stiffness of the Civic has a lot of opportunity for improvement. It is by far the ďweakest link in the chainĒ for chassis design. The current architecture relies on the lower radiator support to transfer the lateral load from the left front rail to the right front rail. Since the lower radiator support is at a lower elevation than the front rails, the load path takes a zig zag and that is a very inefficient structural design for high performance expectations. A close look at the lower radiator support will also indicate that the fore aft section thickness is quite narrow. Because of this, it does not yield that much stiffness when loaded laterally for the rails. Ideally the way to efficiently transfer the lateral load of the right rail to the left rail is to do this on the same plane. It just so happens that the bumper beam is at the same plane. Unfortunately, the attachment stiffness to the frame rails is very weak. This is designed in this manner to reduce cost and ease the assembly to assure fit and finish. High performance cars have stiffer attachments in this area.

Basically, the Frame Locks unifies the entire front chassis by effectively tying the front rails together. Professional race cars also have stiff chassis and they do so for this very reason. Itís not always about the suspension. A high performance car also needs a stiff chassis to make the suspension work effectively.</TD></TR></TABLE>

If you have any questions, please post them and I'll try to answer to the best of my ability.
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Old 09-20-2004, 04:16 PM
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Default Re: Another KORBACH FRAME LOCK REVIEW (Pariah)

Since you went by the "*** dyno" , I question just how much that rear tie bar actually made a difference. A sway bar is extremely noticeable, but i cant see an ebay rear tie doing much.

Nice review though.
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Old 09-20-2004, 04:18 PM
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Im glad to see another review of these. The more I see the more I am interested in trying them out.
I guess I'll wait for a 3rd "theyre good" before I shell out the cash down the road.

Thanks again
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Old 09-20-2004, 04:50 PM
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Default Re: Another KORBACH FRAME LOCK REVIEW (Pariah)

how much do the frame lock kits sell for?
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Old 09-20-2004, 05:03 PM
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Default Re: Another KORBACH FRAME LOCK REVIEW (fkncivic)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by fkncivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">how much do the frame lock kits sell for?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Did you even bother reading his post?

Nice review. I'm glad to read firsthand experience with these instead of a lot of assumptions and what not. I've been thinking about buying them but can't afford to right now. Thx for the write-up.
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Old 09-20-2004, 05:33 PM
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Default Re: Another KORBACH FRAME LOCK REVIEW (JaeOne3345)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JaeOne3345 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Since you went by the "*** dyno"</TD></TR></TABLE>

Which is all i ever see being used when it comes to reviews on this product. I'll remain pessimistic about this, or any such product, until i see some testing that involves more than a random persons opinion on the way something feels...
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Old 09-20-2004, 05:36 PM
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<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JV &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Which is all i ever see being used when it comes to reviews on this product. I'll remain pessimistic about this, or any such product, until i see some testing that involves more than a random persons opinion on the way something feels...</TD></TR></TABLE>

As much as I hate to say it, I'm the same way. How about some skidpad numbers or something? The placebo effect is a heck of a thing.
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Old 09-20-2004, 06:08 PM
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if the review was all based on 'placebo effect', wouldn't i have said that everything reviewers and korbach claims to be true? no i didn't. i don't have access to a skid pad or anything, but i tried to be as objective as possible and test all the claims made for this product.
i may be some random person on HT, but people will vouch for me on HondaSwap and HondaShowOff for not promoting crap.
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Old 09-20-2004, 06:14 PM
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Default Re: Another KORBACH FRAME LOCK REVIEW (fkncivic)

NO MORE ******* *** CHASSiS DYNO

BRING IT TO THE TRACK AND COMPARE LAP TIMES WITH THEM ON AND OFF

PERFORM A SKIDPAD RESULT

DO A SLALOM


THIS IS ALL KORBACH PERFORMANCE HAS TO DO, WHY HAVEN'T THEY?

KOrbach-if you need a marketing director let me know, I am qualified.

****'S SAKE
 
Old 09-20-2004, 06:19 PM
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i agree. it does need to be done. i wouldn't have spent $250 for the frame locks even with all the good reviews without some stats.
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Old 09-20-2004, 06:28 PM
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Were I to have any faith in a product like this I would make my own long before buying a kit for God-knows how much money . Aluminum or mild steel L-bends and some grade8 hardware and you're set.
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Old 09-20-2004, 06:35 PM
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L bends wouldn't do much. the triangulation of the brackets is what gives it strength.
i'd just be eager to see someone install their own version w/o welding. some nuts would be impossible to get placed w/o the stick-nuts in the korbach kit.
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Old 09-20-2004, 07:09 PM
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I like to see track results. 50/50 balance, kinda pushing it. I hope these products dont get out of hand like those c-pillar bars. Still trying to figure out how those things even work.
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Old 09-20-2004, 07:28 PM
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Default Re: (Archidictus)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Archidictus &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Were I to have any faith in a product like this I would make my own long before buying a kit for God-knows how much money . Aluminum or mild steel L-bends and some grade8 hardware and you're set.</TD></TR></TABLE>

At a glance, they seem easy to make. But I caution you not to make it too stiff for crash worthiness purposes. There are a number of things to consider. You will notice in out design that there are triangular holes and a cut out. These are here specifically for crash. It must buckle in a frontal impact and other considerations I can not state here now. It is partly proprietery. Our goal in the design was to increase front lateral stiffness without significantly affecting the fore/aft. Another thing is to make them right, you need 4 independent brackets joined together. Each bracket is a complicated shape requiring several pieces fabbed together then welded to the car. Take a look at the photos on our web site. To make quick and dirty versions will totally compromise the effectiveness. Someone already tried and said it didn't make much improvement...and that is why. If you fab something, post a photo here and let us know how long it took to do. You could hire welder to do this, but professionals charge $ 80/hr. It will take him at least 2-4 hours to do it right and it still may not work. Think about the process involved. Measure to tailor fit the braces, make cardboard templates, cut the several pieces of flat metal per the templates to make 4 brackets. Weld them together and then weld to car. Think about all the home projects you've ever done. It always takes longer than you think. In theory you can state easy to make on this forum, but in reality. Itís not that easy. If you can fab up by yoursself, more power to you. You can go right ahead and make home made strut bars too. And while youíre at, why donít you sew up a nice suit. Iím sure itíll look fine (just kidding). Most people we find want professionally made products, but if you want to save a few bucks. Go for it. The other reason for the price is although these seem like simple small parts Ö. a lot of research and development went into them. Our Frame Locks are laser cut blanks, formed, welded, grinded and powder coated. Also the installation manual makes it easy to install. Drill bits, packaging, stick nuts, labor, management, advertising cost money as well as just running the business cost money. You'd be shocked to find out that most after market products only cost $ .25 to the dollar to make. That is the honest truth. Look at sway bars. What do you think that cost to produce or springs once you have the equipment.

David Lawson
Korbach Performance
http://www.korbachperformance.com


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Old 09-20-2004, 07:37 PM
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based on pariah has said in the past on HSO, i would trust these. how much, i'm not sure, because they haven't published numbers. like solid_ride said, why would a company put so much effort into designing these if they could be replicated easily without loosing performance?

i don't understand those cpillar bars either, and the new ones that go right on the ceiling...doesn't the roof serve the same purpose?
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Old 09-20-2004, 09:22 PM
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Default Re: Another KORBACH FRAME LOCK REVIEW (Pariah)

damn... i wish i still had a bumper support
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Old 09-20-2004, 09:25 PM
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Default Re: Another KORBACH FRAME LOCK REVIEW (Ricey McRicerton)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ricey McRicerton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

As much as I hate to say it, I'm the same way. How about some skidpad numbers or something? The placebo effect is a heck of a thing. </TD></TR></TABLE>

**** ya it is.

another person doing some cRaZy *** TesTINg of RaCeR PaRtS 0N ThE streezet YO.
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Old 09-20-2004, 09:42 PM
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I love this picture..
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Old 09-20-2004, 09:56 PM
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Default Re: Another KORBACH FRAME LOCK REVIEW (integlspwr2k)

wouldnt you be better with like a jimfab crossmember or sumthing. for like prolly $75 dollars more. 250 is alot of money for 2 brackets
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Old 09-21-2004, 04:16 AM
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Default Re: Another KORBACH FRAME LOCK REVIEW (Daniel)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Daniel &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Did you even bother reading his post?

Nice review. I'm glad to read firsthand experience with these instead of a lot of assumptions and what not. I've been thinking about buying them but can't afford to right now. Thx for the write-up. </TD></TR></TABLE> sorry i got mesmorized by how long it was and forgot the price was in the post plus i was half asleep when i read it..
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Old 09-21-2004, 07:29 AM
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Do you know if they are under development for the EP?
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Old 09-21-2004, 08:15 AM
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Default Re: Another KORBACH FRAME LOCK REVIEW (Pariah)

nice review/write-up Pariah, but i would still like to see actual tests and stats on this product.
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Old 09-21-2004, 08:49 AM
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Default Re: Another KORBACH FRAME LOCK REVIEW (jL iLLuZiOnz 9)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Pariah &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
i'd just be eager to see someone install their own version w/o welding. some nuts would be impossible to get placed w/o the stick-nuts in the korbach kit. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Why without welding?

Really all this does is add another connecting point to the chassis.. every point you connect, the stiffer the entire frame gets. If you wanded to you could just start bolting metal peices all over the place to stiffen it up. IMO the frame locks will work to some degree, but isn't going to be your best bang for your buck as far as stiffening your chassis unless you make them yourself.
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Old 09-21-2004, 11:19 AM
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Default Re: Another KORBACH FRAME LOCK REVIEW (jL iLLuZiOnz 9)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jL iLLuZiOnz 9 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">nice review/write-up Pariah, but i would still like to see actual tests and stats on this product.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Our problem is finding a racer who is very credible here at this forum who will do some before and after track times. He must be consistent and very well respected and well known. I am still working on Jerry Birchmore via George Knighton, but have not heard back. I just emailed Honda Challenge to find someone.

I will offer a $ 50 reward to anyone that can kind find me someone that fits above description. This persons endorsment must be gold so that people will not acuse them of fabricating the numbers.

Come on Honda-Tech, you guys are supposed to be the top notch web site. Find me someone please! I am challenging you. It will be months before Grass Roots can publish an article.

Thanks for the help!

David Lawson
Korbach Performance
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Old 09-21-2004, 11:24 AM
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Default Re: Another KORBACH FRAME LOCK REVIEW (Solid_Ride)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Solid_Ride &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It will be months before Grass Roots can publish an article.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Did they agree to test it, though? Because THAT would be a credible review.
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