The_Honda_Guy

Alright, so a friend recently decided to part out his 97 GSR build. He still has all the stock brake components which I would like to have. My girlfriend has a 97 Civic DX coupe 5 speed with the stock brakes all around.

Now, I've done some looking into this. From what I've read GSR brakes are the same size as EM1 brakes which seems to be backed up by many people. So basically in order to use GSR brakes I would simply need to make sure that I have the correct parts for an EM1 brake swap too. I decided to start working around this and see what I would need to meet the parts requirements.

After doing some searching I came across a few facts. First was that certain trim levels in hatch and coupe used the same 40/40 prop valve as the EM1, the DX coupe being one of them. I checked the OEM part number and found this to be true, so I can re-use my stock prop valve without any issue. Next, I checked into the booster. The DX coupe uses the same booster as the EM1 also, and part numbers verify that too.

Now is where I start running into some issues. I know that the DX uses a small master cylinder. It was recommended to use the EM1 7/8" master cylinder in a previous post. My friend has a 15/16" master cylinder, so I'm not sure if it will work correctly. Also, I know that I need to swap the front knuckles to EX/Si knuckles, but I'm wondering if the Integra ones will work. Do Integra's use the same wheel bearings or are they a different spline also? As far as I know the complete rear trailing arm assembly should be a direct swap and I should also be able to use his GSR e-brake cables.

If anyone can confirm this I'd appreciate it. Thanks!

94EG8

EM1 and Integra front brakes look the same but aren't, they use the same size rotots but the integra uses larger caliper pistons. It is true that The Si coupe uses the same prop valve as the DX/HX coupe and CX/DX hatch, but the integra is different again. Use one from a '98 - '01 non ABS integra, use the master cylinder and brake booster from the same, anything else will require bending and flaring lines.

The_Honda_Guy

"The 99-00 Civic Si comes with the same shaped proportioning valve as any 96-00 Civic, so swapping the proportioning valve is a bolt on job, which can be done with a few offset brake line wrenches. The stock drum proportioning valve, when the brake pedal is applied, sends fluid to the rear drums only. This is because the drum shoes are a few millimeters from the drum, so the fluid initially moves the pads to touch the drum, whereas with a pad and rotor, the pad is so close that it brushes along the rotor while driving. After the shoe touches the drum, the proportioning valve sends fluid to the front calipers as well, and then acts as a hub for the fluid. So a rear drum intended prop. valve in a car with four wheel discs is not the end of the world.
The 99-00 SI proportioning valve acts as a hub more of the time, since the back brakes are calipers, there is no need to send so much fluid initially to the back brakes because they are calipers, and use pads that also brush against the rotor constantly. Therefore, a rear disc intended prop. valve in a car with front discs and rear drums would be very bad."

Alright, so apparently the prop valve from the 97 DX and EM1 is supposed to be the same, but from what I've read the prop valve from a drum car compared to a disc acts differently. Apparently the drum prop valve will send fluid to the drums before sending it to the front to get the rear shoes to engage properly. I'm assuming this is the need for using the 98-01 non-ABS Integra 40/40 prop valve? In the info above it says that the 40/40 drum prop valve should work without any issues?


"With EX/Si calipers, use a 7/8” MC from a 96-00 EX or 99-00 Si because of the more fluid going to a larger piston. With ITR/Legend/Vigor/Accord V6 or Integra DA or DC calipers, use a 15/16” MC from a 98-01 Integra LS to accommodate for the even more fluid. Any smaller of a MC will cause the pedal swing to be too long."

Now, I did a bit more reading on the master cylinder. Apparently if you're going to use Integra brakes you want the 15/16" non-ABS master cylinder since they use a larger piston than the EX/Si calipers. The 7/8" master cylinder is apparently too small for Integra brakes. I guess there's really no discussion there. lol


"Upgrading your brake booster to the Integra (or maybe other) sized one has the only drawback of pushing the MC forward, so the hardlines aren't going to be in the same place as they were. So bending hardlines may be in order. What a bigger booster does is the same thing as increasing the pedal length, it increases the force on the MC linearly. Like it may may push on it 40% harder or so at any given point. So this basically makes your foot do less work. This is for people who have a really soft foot and want to make their car brake 'harder'. This can be done, but given the weight of the civic chassis, if you use the right sized MC with its paired caliper, no upgrade to the booster is necessary. It gets to the point where its just personal preference."

From what I'm reading here on the booster I should be able to keep my stock booster. As long as I have the correct sized master cylinder then I don't need to upgrade the booster at all. Care to explain why I would need the 98-01 non-ABS Integra booster?

94EG8

Honda doesn't specifically set their prop valves up for drum or disc, they just set them up to push a certain amount of fluid to the front or rear, depends on what they used for front and rear brakes. Below is a list of several prop valves complete with honda part numbers, you'll notice that several civics with drum brakes that share their prop valve with the Si coupe, these have been bolded, i've also included that part number for a '98 RS which you'll notice is different from everything else.

46210-S04-952 VALVE ASSY., PROPORTIONING 1998 INTEGRA RS
46210-S04-902 VALVE ASSY., PROPORTIONING 2000 CIVIC CX Hatch
46210-S04-902 VALVE ASSY., PROPORTIONING 2000 CIVIC DX Hatch
46210-S04-902 VALVE ASSY., PROPORTIONING 2000 CIVIC DX Coupe
46210-S04-902 VALVE ASSY., PROPORTIONING 2000 CIVIC HX Coupe
46210-S04-902 VALVE ASSY., PROPORTIONING 2000 CIVIC SI Coupe
46210-S04-912 VALVE ASSY., PROPORTIONING 2000 CIVIC DX Sedan
46210-S04-912 VALVE ASSY., PROPORTIONING 2000 CIVIC DX-V Sedan
46210-S04-912 VALVE ASSY., PROPORTIONING 2000 CIVIC LX Sedan
46210-S04-922 VALVE ASSY., PROPORTIONING 2000 CIVIC GX Sedan
46210-S04-962 VALVE ASSY., PROPORTIONING 2000 CIVIC EX Coupe

The_Honda_Guy

After doing a bit more reading and part matching I've decided to just keep my stock booster and prop valve. I checked the part numbers again and the DX does use the same booster and prop valve as the EM1, meaning there's no need to change them for any reason. BrakeExpert states that there's no reason the change the booster as long as the master cylinder is paired to your calipers, which it will be. Also, if you look at other brake swaps nobody talks about having to change the booster either and just making sure that you are using a EM1 booster for your EK. Also, the other brake swap threads I've read only talk about changing the prop valve if you've got the 60/40 one and all of them recommend using the EM1 prop valve also. Since I've already got the EM1 prop valve and booster I'll just stick with those and change master cylinders.

I know for sure that I need to change master cylinders. Problem is that I keep reading everywhere that everyone says to use the EM1 7/8" master cylinder, even for GSR brakes. I'm thinking it would be a better idea to use the 15/16" master cylinder from a 98-01 non-ABS Integra though, that way it's at least going to match the calipers.

Just to add this in too - the Si e-brake cables are supposed to work best, but from what I'm reading you can use any 94-01 Integra e-brake cables, just that they require you to widen out one of the e-brake holes a little and that you need to adjust the nut on the adjuster up a bit. If that's the case I have no problem doing that if it means saving some money. I'm going to be undercoating the car anyways, so I can just fill in the other hole. Has anyone here used the 94-01 Integra cables and can confirm?

98civdx

I am doing some what of the same, my setup is, 99-00 si brakes front and rear, si Master cyl. and my stock prop valve.


My freind is currently runing DC calipers front and rear, with the 15/16 master cyl. and his stock booster and prop valve. Car is a 97 dx coupe.
His choose not to swap the booster because of the pita it is to put in, there is noithing wrong with his brakes that i can tell. They stop great.

The_Honda_Guy

Alright, I'll for sure keep the stock booster then and just get the 15/16" master cylinder from a 98-01 non-ABS Integra.

Can anyone here confirm that the 94-01 Integra e-brake cables work fine on an EK Civic?

Also, is it possible to use the DC Integra front knuckles for this swap or do you have to use EX/Si knuckles?

LiNkxUSMC

i also plan on doin a 4 wheel disc conversion to my 99 ex coupe, but my front calipers need to be replaced so i was thinking about upgrading to maybe 4 piston in front anyone know about this?

300whpej

the honda guy- you were given the correct information by 94eg8, which is you will need the integra prop valve. i mean the brakes will work with the stock civic prop valve, but you WILL get a spongy brake pedal no matter how well you bleed the brakes and regardless of your pad/rotor combo. you will pretty much need the entire brake system from the integra if you want a flawless conversion.

FranklinWalker

yes,i can confirm this

98civdx

You can use the integra knuckle if you want, it doesnt matter which one you use.

As far as the integra E-Brake lines, i have heard both you can and cant. I would just play it safe and get 99-00 si.

The_Honda_Guy

I'm just going to use the stock booster and prop valve and if it doesn't work I can always change it. From what I've read though the stock booster and prop valve will work fine, especially considering they're the same part numbers as the EM1. No matter what I'm going to get the 98-01 non-ABS Integra master since it's 15/16" and won't require re-flaring lines. Only thing is that I've read that if the master came from a 94-01 RS that it's possible to use on an EK, but I can't imagine that's true.

As far as the e-brake cables go, I'm going to try and use the DC ones. I've read lots of places now that say they work, just that you need to set them up a little differently than the EM1 cables. Reason I'm wanting to use them is because I should be able to get them for a good deal.

As far as the knuckles go I would love to use the Integra ones, just that I'm wondering if they're a bit different. From what I've read some people say they will change the front alignment specs a bit. Also, do Integras have the same wheel bearing spline as a Civic? If not, is it possible to use a Civic wheel bearing?

The_Honda_Guy

Just found the answer to my own question. I just read that DA/EG knuckles will bolt onto a EK, but since they are 1/2" taller they will create positive camber. DC/EK knuckles apparently are the same though, so I will be able to use them.

From what I've read, BrakeExpert says that:

"With ITR/Legend/Vigor/Accord V6 or Integra DA or DC calipers, use a 15/16” MC from a 98-01 Integra LS to accommodate for the even more fluid. Any smaller of a MC will cause the pedal swing to be too long."

"...if you use the right sized MC with its paired caliper, no upgrade to the booster is necessary. It gets to the point where its just personal preference."

"Though I recommend that you install the 99-00 Si prop valve on your 96-00 Civic when you put rear discs on it, because of how it works, I do not have it on my rear disc equipped 1996 Civic. I do not track race, and have good tires, and on the streets, have not locked up the rear tires before the fronts because I can brake very hard and not lockup the tires. I do not have ABS."

"Ideally you want to use 99-00 Si e-brake cables, but those from a 94-01 Integra work, as I have them on my 96 Civic right now, just adjust the adjusting screw more toward the front. Also the clamp that holds both cables in place wont line up, but you can move it to where it will, though only one bolt will go into the frame, not both."

"So when converting from drum to disc, or disc to drum, the brake fluid lines are not the same, and regardless of which rear caliper you use, use brake hoses intended for a 99-00 Civic Si (OEM or aftermarket.)"

So far I have this list then:

98-01 Integra non-ABS 15/16" master cylinder
Re-use stock brake booster
Re-use stock prop valve
DC Integra front knuckles
DC Integra e-brake cables
EM1 soft brake lines
DC Integra front caliper brackets
DC Integra front calipers
DC Integra front rotors
DC Integra front brake pads

Now all I need to figure out is wheel bearings. From what I can see, as long as I get ones for a non-ABS EK or DC I should be fine. Is it possible to use ones from an ABS car? I'm assuming the hub and bearing is the same minus that it will have a trigger wheel?

98civdx

From what i have seen abs or non abs wheel bearings should work fine for you. Howver i could be wrong, and im not saying im right.
I would get wheel bearings for the knunckles you have, even though si and integra may be the same.

94EG8

EG/DC knuckles are the same, height wise, DA are different and so are EK. Unless you use '96 - '00 EX/Si knuckles you will have camber issues that need to be addressed.

The_Honda_Guy

Yea, I'm just debating buying new wheel bearings anyways, that way I'm installing fresh ones and won't need to go back later and tear the car apart when one goes out. At this point I'll most likely just buy new non-ABS bearings. I'm assuming though that the front hubs should work from a GSR?

CrAzE191st

i made a thread about this and no one responded! Not to hijack this thread but, I'm trying to do a rear disc brake conversion too on a 99 DX and going by what I've been able to dig up and have read so far (proportioning valve and trailing arms from all 92-00 civics are the same I think), could I use the following for a painless conversion:

DC brake calipers/rotors
DC brake lines
EM1 master cylinder
EM1 E-Brake Lines

Am I correct? If someone could confirm this I would greatly appreciate it. If there are any better or easier ways to do this, any tips would be great.

Also could I just get the rotors and calipers or do I really need to buy the full trailing arm assembly?

The_Honda_Guy

Nobody responded because all your questions have been answered elsewhere. Read this.

http://www.b20vtec.com/forums/suspen...pplicable.html

All of your questions have been answered there.

The_Honda_Guy

So, you say I'll have camber issues. I happen to have the Blox front upper control arms. Can this camber issue be easily adjusted or will it change it too much? If it can be easily fixed with the adjustable control arms I'll just use them anyways.

94EG8

I'm not sure just how far off its going to be, you can probably adjust it enough with a camber kit.

b20hatchek

dont mean to thread jack but im wanting to do the same, i hava 96 cx and a friend is parting out his 92 integra, can i just swap the knuckles? the first time i replaced the front pads on the car i found out that only pads for a ex would fit

The_Honda_Guy

Alright, I figured as much.

Also, my next question. I should be fine using the GSR rear hub/bearing correct? I'm thinking of replacing them with new ones while I have the rear trailing arms off and using a non-ABS bearing to save weight/money. If this is the case, do I just buy them for an EM1?

The_Honda_Guy

Alright, I just looked it up and seeing that EM1 rear hub/bearings will work as the Integra RS uses the same. Here's my updated list for the rears:

94-01 Integra rear trailing arm
Re-use stock compensator arms
Re-use stock rear upper control arms
Re-use stock springs/struts
Re-use stock rear lower control arms
99-00 Civic Si rear hub/bearing assemblies
94-01 Integra rear brake calipers
02-03 Civic Si rear brake caliper brackets
02-03 Civic Si rear brake pads
02-03 Civic Si rear brake rotors
94-01 Integra e-brake cables
99-00 Civic Si stainless braided brake lines

That should be the complete rear setup I'd need to bolt it onto the car. It's suggested by BrakeExpert to use that setup when using Integra front brakes to reduce nose dive in the front since the Integra has a bigger caliper piston than the EX/Si and provides more clamping power. I've decided that I may as well go that route anyways since I need new pads and rotors for my setup. The only extra thing I'd have to buy is the mounting bracket from the 02-03 Civic Si.

I'm thinking while these are out it would be a good time to toss in some new trailing arm bushings. Does anyone have any suggestions for these or is OEM the way to go? Are there any parts I'm missing for the rear?

CrAzE191st

I had read in older threads that using the Integra E-brake cables may require some custom cutting of holes to fit the lines since their different than what are in civics and that it would be easier to just use the EM1 ebrake lines which wouldn't require cutting to fit
Can anyone confirm this?

Edit: The B20 thread you linked me to also suggests using EM1 ebrake lines if im not mistaken, but if you got the tools to make the GSR lines work then ur good I guess

CrAzE191st

helpful, but not an end all be all, just as you couldn't answer ur question by looking there