adamdrives

Hey, my name is Adam and this is my first post here. I've also posted over at civicforums.com but this site was recommended to me by a friend. I've had my 97 civic for about 4 years now. It's high mileage, 220k, but I've put a decent amount of work into it to keep it up to speed (fuel tank, rear brake lines). It's a good car just to get around in and gets awesome mpgs. It's the five speed, no PS, etc.

Recently, the original honda compressor died. It had worked great up to that point, putting air out at around 40 degrees. It blew nice and cold, I hardly even had to have the fans on. I replaced it with a brand new compressor, expansion valve, high/low pressure switch (also called binary switch, located on the receiver/drier) and the receiver/drier. Since then I have had nothing but issues.

After I had the all the old freon removed and installed all the new parts, I took it to a local shop (I'm visiting my sister in FL and not familiar with any mechanics here. Normally I go to my dad's shop in NY) to fill it back up. That's when the problems began. The compressor cycled on and off like crazy at idle, and was hardly better at speed. At one point the relief valve on the compressor blew, which should have been a sign of what was really going on. Regardless, the guy said that the clutch spacing could be off, so I adjusted that. Still nothing. With all the new parts, all charged up, with the clutch shims adjusted, the compressor still cycled on and off to frequently. I decided to get a second opinion. I usually do all my own work, but I'm not especially familiar with AC systems and being in Florida I wanted to make sure it was working properly.

I went to a Firestone down the road that my sister said gave her and bf good deals. They were having an AC diagnostic special for $10, so I figured what the heck. 15 mins later, the tech came out and told me the system was overcharged. They took about a pound of freon out of the system. That was why the compressor was cycling like crazy, and why the relief valve had blown. In retrospect I should have noticed that but I figured since it had just come off the freon tank there was no way it could be wrong. Anyway, that was why the compressor was not working properly. Now it ran smooth and constant. But there was still a problem.

The system didn't get much cooler than 60 degrees. The guys said that I should replace the condensor, since the fins were starting to break off (it is original) but said everything else checked out. Here's what I don't understand: before my original compressor died (bearings) everything worked fine and blew cold. This was less than two weeks ago. Now, with all new parts, fresh freon and oil, double checked level and correctly spaced clutch, it hardly blows lower than 70 degrees in the sun. (It hit 60 once). The air temp is hot and it's humid as *****, but still. I think it should get cooler. I'm not sure what to try next. I'd like to make some sense of this before I bite the bullet and get a new condensor.

TL;DR AC system blows 65 deg air after new compressor, expansion valve and binary switch with correct amt of freon.

Former User

<p>When a compressor dies, it usually throws tiny metal shrapnel that gets distributed throughout the A/C system.&nbsp;Therefore, before you install a new compressor, you should replace all components, including the evaporator,&nbsp;condenser, etc. and then thoroughly flush out all the refrigerant hoses/pipes. &nbsp;That metal shrapnel can quickly destroy a new A/C system and clog the expansion valve.</p>

adamdrives

That would be unfortunate. The bearings on the old compressor got very noisy, that was what necessitated the replacement. Barring fragments that have clogged the system, is there any alternative? I took the old compressor apart to consider putting in a new bearing, but had second thoughts and decided it would be smarter to start new. It looked clean inside.

Former User

<p></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Did you discard the oil inside the old compressor? &nbsp;If not, pour oil into a clear container and also rinse the compressor internals with some 70% isopropanol and add/mix with the old oil. &nbsp;Let the oil settle overnight and look for metallic debris. &nbsp;If debris is visible, check whether it sticks to a magnet.</p><p>Did an internal compressor bearing go bad or the bearing in the external pulley that engages the armature plate (clutch)?</p>

adamdrives

Unfortunately I did not save the old compressor or oil. I usually keep old parts around for a few days after replacement just in case, but in this instance it was time to go to the metal recyclers anyway and I was glad to get rid of it. Any oil gets poured into my 5 gallon oil change container at the end of the day. I believe it was the bearing in the clutch. To be honest with you, I'm not sure. Once the belt was off the compressor, I spun it and could immediately tell it wasn't rolling smoothly. Once I cracked the compressor open, I decided pretty quickly it would be smarter just to get a new one. I had been considering replacing the seals, etc, with parts from an inexpensive rebuild but changed my mind.

Because of the high humidity here, I am wondering if considerable moisture got into the system when I replaced the drier and expansion valve (for some reason I had a hard time locating the lines to the drier in the correct orientation and had to test fit it 5-6 times). Both jobs took me a little longer than I would have liked, and I didn't plug the lines. I read online that when the system is evacuated it removes any moisture, I don't know if that is 100% accurate. That is the only difference I can think of between this situation and the previous one, minus now all the parts are new.

Former User

<p>You're at a decision fork in the road. &nbsp;If there's metal debris in the system, the longer the system runs, the greater chance that the compressor will be ruined.</p><p>On the other hand, if you believe the compressor did not self destruct internally, then the next step is to performance test the system as described in the service manual. &nbsp;The resulting high and low side pressures can be used to diagnose the problem.</p><p>Can I&nbsp;assume that the condenser fan runs?</p>

Former User

<p></p><p>Spun what? &nbsp;The pulley or armature plate?</p><p>&nbsp;</p>

adamdrives

I believe just the pulley. Would it spin easily? In all honesty, I cannot completely remember what I spun. I know that I suspected a bearing failure, took the belt off, spun the pulley (maybe it was the plate) and felt a grinding noise. I did not know at that point to discriminate. Since something was obviously bad, I didn't think about it.

The condensor fan does run.

This might be a good opportunity for me to purchase a dual gauge AC tool. When it was on the tool at Firestone I wasn't able to see the readings, I was simply told they were in the correct range.

Former User

<p></p><p>Normally the pulley should spin freely, and the plate should turn, with some resistance. &nbsp;If the pulley was grinding but the plate turned, then the compressor may have been fine, and the fix would have been to replace the pulley bearing.</p><p>By the way, I would not trust Firestone with my lawnmower.</p>

adamdrives

I generally don't trust large franchises either, in this case I wanted to get a second look at the car with professional tools. Under normal circumstances (not being on the road), I would take it to a local shop that I trust. They were right about the system being overcharged as far as I know, after they took a pound (!) out of the system the compressor ran without excessive cycling. That being said, I would like to see the readings and interpret them myself via the shop manual. It's a shame I may have thrown out a repairable compressor, but given the mileage (220k) I think it was probably close to the end of its service life anyway.

adamdrives

Until I can get a proper tool on the car, do you think it's possible it was filled with contaminated (or otherwise not potent) freon? What about moisture in the system freezing and causing a blockage? One thing I've noticed is that the Low side pipe by the radiator shroud right after the port used to create a lot of condensation. Obviously, if the system isn't getting properly cool, it won't create as much condensation, but maybe this is a clue. Since it seems to reach about 60 now, I may wait until I get back to NY to look into this further. The drive won't be tolerable with no AC, but I think I can bear it as it is now.

etomas6

Don't forget when it is humid out the AC system has to work twice as hard as it would if it was just hot out. Its job is to Dry the air out, and remove energy (cool). So if its hot now in Florida its probably much much more humid. The cooling effect wont be as effective. 60 does still seem a little high, the Condenser being as old as it is could effect its performance too however.... RonJ is definitely right about debris floating around in your new system. Just don't over look the obvious.

Former User

<p></p><p>Download the service manual and follow the instructions on&nbsp;performance testing the system with a manifold gauge set.</p>

adamdrives

The procedure is simple enough, but the chart they give you to interpret the results is a little confusing.

Former User

<p></p><p>Specific questions?</p><p><img src="http://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-tech.com-vbulletin/590x769/80-picture_9942_52e30f0a560a0908d86c1f0f9f0e3b4749eb3 57a.jpg" title="" /><br /><br />&nbsp;</p>

adamdrives

It's number four that's giving me trouble. Is the humidity the 30% and 80%? Maybe once I have the results and print out a copy I can make sense of it. If I could see a completed chart that would make it a lot easier. I'm going to get the gauge set now, but wanted to get an understanding of what I was doing first.

Former User

<p>During the test, you must determine the ambient temp, relative humidity, vent output temp, and high and low side pressures&nbsp;to complete the chart. &nbsp;You'll end up with something like this:</p><p><img src="http://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-tech.com-vbulletin/551x633/80-picture_9943_5b977c9a7d889b9c336531518e255276b1fd1 341.jpg" title="" /><br /><br />&nbsp;</p>

adamdrives

Okay. I don't have access to a printer at the moment. I don't have any apps to mess around with it on my laptop. I will try to visualize it. These are my readings: 86 deg F, 76% humidity. At idle, low side 38 psi and high side around 230 (flutters a little).

Just after a quick glance, it seems like most of the values are in the right range for near 80% humidity. Am I missing something? Should it really blow around 68 deg F at 80% humidity and 86 deg F?

adamdrives

Hmm. My high side value seems a little low. Looks like it should be closer to the 360 psi range.

Former User

<p>Please carefully read how to do the performance test in&nbsp;the service manual. &nbsp;For example, the idle speed must be held at 1500 rpm. &nbsp;Follow the instructions to the tee.</p>

adamdrives

Okay. I re-did the test following all the instructions carefully. I adjusted the throttle cable nuts so it held at an even 1500. I don't have a tach so I used a wireless obdII dongle and my iphone to watch rpms. I parked it in the shadiest spot I could find, opened the doors and let the car run for ten minutes with the fan at max and recirc to forward vent. At 85 deg F and 75% humidity, the interior vent thermometer read 76 deg F, high and low side 285-290 and 19 psi after ten minutes.

If I'm interpreting the data correctly, both the high and low sides are too low. It looks like at 85F and 75hum, the low side should be closer to 40, and the high side should be nearer to 380. That indicates clogged or kinked lines, according to the manual. Would it make sense to remove/inspect them? Visually, I cannot see any obvious kinks, and obviously a clog would be visible.

Looking at a generic AC guide shows that low readings on both high and low could also indicate low level of r134.

Former User

<p></p><p>I agree. &nbsp;I would start with the interpretation that the R134a is low on charge.</p><p><img src="http://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-tech.com-vbulletin/533x630/80-picture_9946_f14317dc46ed86c1d1236c43d0a070b0a0a85 535.jpg" title="" /><br /><br /><img src="https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/honda-tech.com-vbulletin/710x91/80-picture_9947_1165ec22fb839c89f4a767d1eb8450d8c032d fc9.jpg" title="" /><br /><br />&nbsp;</p>

adamdrives

There must be air in the system. At the correct pressures for high and low, the interior temp is still only 72 f. This seems like the next logical step given the readings.

One thing is that the high side gets very hot, almost too hot too touch.

Former User

<p></p><p>I don't&nbsp;follow&nbsp;the logic of your new interpretation. &nbsp;Both the high and low pressures are unambiguously&nbsp;<u>abnormally low</u> based on your own test results.</p>

adamdrives

Correction: after I filled the system to the correct pressures according to the graph, the air still did not blow cold. I'm not sure how much r134 I put in, I added it slowly and kept my eyes on the gauges after letting car run @ 1500 rpm for ten minutes. I used the third line of the gauge manifold to add it. Both gauges slowly crept up into the appropriate levels (43 on low side, close to 340 on high). The interior cent still showed 72 deg f. It did get cooler, but not by much.