Syndacate

Hey,

I have a '97 EX - rear drums.

About a month ago (maybe 2?) the rear brakes started to feel like crap, they definitely weren't doing their share of the work, I attributed to them having a bit of miles on them, and figured I'd get new shoes/drums when the time was right..

I ended up waiting and waiting and warped my front rotors - while relying heavily on downshifting to not only save pad, but in some cases because I really wasn't sure if ~60% was enough (having no rear brakes blows). That's irrelevant, though.

So fast forward to today, I'm driving around, everything seems peachy, then bam - pedal sinks to the floor, lose all braking power - no brakes at all, going maybe ~35mph - so with a combination of e-brake (they don't lock, so it engages them...sort of *shrugs*), the regular brake (which didn't do ****), and massively hard downshifting into first (it was quite a ride) I got it to stop near the bottom of the hill. Luckily a friend had a shop about a mile away so I limped it there, got it up on the lift. Turns out the rear brake lines blew the hell out. Now the prop valve has that little reservoir for the remaining sealed systems in the event of a blow out (but that doesn't do jack ****..).

So I change all the rear brake lines from the prop valve, and when I get to the back, the rear wheels spun easy as cake - complete free - no friction. The drum came off easy as cake too. I have like 80% shoe pad remaining and the drums are perfect - they were just retracted nearly all the way.

So I guess my question is - what in the **** could have made those shoes back off? I last changed the brakes about a year ago, they worked fine all year...then the last month or two they started declining (as I thought that was just the shoes going) - they must have been backing off. The auto adjuster only goes one way...and all the components were in mint condition.

I put the shoes back out there and slid the drums on as they should be - a bleed later the thing stops on a dime.

What gives, how the hell do shoes retract like that?

Also, I'm quite fed up with drums, thinking I'm actually going to keep my civic (didn't originally plan to), I'm sort of growing attached to it...so I'm thinking of getting LS/RS trailing arms with disk hubs for a rear disk conversion. How much are these going for (non-junkyard, used, though...we simply don't have junkyards around here that they'll let you go through)?

Thanks!

PS: **** total brake failure - I typically don't get scared while driving but that **** was freaky .

D16SiHatch

**** thats crazy. i'da been scared too lol

as far as the shoes retracting.. i've never seen that before. obviously the only way they can go back is if that adjuster is allowing them to do so. all i can figure is that the little tab that the wheel muhjig catches on is not catching and allowing it to adjust the wrong way.

i don't know prices on the disc trailing arm parts so someone else would have to chime in on a going rate for those.

Syndacate

You mean as if the adjuster caught the gear below the mid-point and turn it down, pulling in the shoes?

That was my first thoughts as well, although the adjuster was 3/4 of the way up the adjuster gear, I don't even think it can fall that low on the gear - it (and everything else there) appears to be in perfect condition, and are adjusting fine now (not to mention the 10 or so months since I've changed them which they were adjusting fine...wouldn't have taken that long to notice an issue if they were backing off each time I hit the brake - I've just never seen anything like it..).

Guess what's done is done, I survived and the car is unscathed so I can't really complain, the hardlines were cheap, too. I'd like to know what went wrong for future knowledge..although because of this screwup I'm kinda wondering how much I can get LS/RS/Si trailing arms for, for a disk conversion.

Syndacate

*bump

Any help on pricing 'n such?

saltybeagle

I got rear set up for 90 civic from 90 teggy for 150 w/ e brake lines. Equilizer was 10 from the yard. Never did the booster swap. Easy easy swap. My guess for the whole rear brake back off would be air in the lines. If they weren't bled properly the master cylinder has an de airing function that would get out the air but only small amounts. My guess for the blow out was air packed by the rear lines up to the cylinder. Double check your seals on your rear cylinders to make sure there are no leaks.

Syndacate

I wasn't aware I'd have to do a booster swap - thought they used the same? Is the prop valve the same, also?

Maybe I had the wrong idea, but for OEM rotors/calipers, I thought all it was was new trailing arms...suspension is interchangeable IIRC, so that shouldn't cause a problem.

If a 'teg can't get it done, what about the '99/'00 Si, does it work straight from there (just swapping the trailing arms out), or do I need more stuff (and if so, what?)?

Also, do pre-'92 'teg stuff work on '97 civics? I would have thought it had to be from a '94-'01 'teg.

98civdx

You dont need a booster swap all 96-00 are the same..

In your case because you have a ex you have a different prop valve then si, the dx hatch and coupe have the same, i think theres one more also. I have a chart ill post it up in a sec.

The 99-00 si will bolt right on, get its break lines and e brake lines. Same thing with teg, but i think break lines may be differnt, but still get si e brake lines.

A full disk conversion from si can be had for a 100- 250. most id ever pay is 200 tho.
Your fine with your master cylinder, same as si, i would swap the prop valve tho.

98civdx

heres the chart.
46210-S04-952 VALVE ASSY., PROPORTIONING 1998 INTEGRA RS
46210-S04-902 VALVE ASSY., PROPORTIONING 2000 CIVIC CX Hatch
46210-S04-902 VALVE ASSY., PROPORTIONING 2000 CIVIC DX Hatch
46210-S04-902 VALVE ASSY., PROPORTIONING 2000 CIVIC DX Coupe
46210-S04-902 VALVE ASSY., PROPORTIONING 2000 CIVIC HX Coupe
46210-S04-902 VALVE ASSY., PROPORTIONING 2000 CIVIC SI Coupe
46210-S04-912 VALVE ASSY., PROPORTIONING 2000 CIVIC DX Sedan
46210-S04-912 VALVE ASSY., PROPORTIONING 2000 CIVIC DX-V Sedan
46210-S04-912 VALVE ASSY., PROPORTIONING 2000 CIVIC LX Sedan
46210-S04-922 VALVE ASSY., PROPORTIONING 2000 CIVIC GX Sedan
46210-S04-962 VALVE ASSY., PROPORTIONING 2000 CIVIC EX Coupe

Syndacate

So in accordance with that chart, I'm going to need:
the 952 or 902 prop valve, the trailing arms need to be changed, and I need Si brake lines (all the way to the prop valve, or just the en piece from the last couple to the caliper) and e-brake lines? (This is so not seeming worth it).

Also, why the hell does the CX have the same prop valve as an Si? My EX doesn't have ABS...that chart seems a little iffy...

98civdx

Get the 902 valve.
No, all you need is the rubber house. all other lines will work just fine.
Yes you will need si e break lines, Normally they will all come with trailing arms, for around 150 (ish)
To some people it isnt worth it, myslef, i would have never gotten the rear. I did only because i got front and rear sway bars and everything else needed for 250 including control arms, Sold some crap Im now in it around 175 so for me it's worth it.

That was my question as well. I asure you it's correct. 94EG8 as well as several honda dealers comfirmed it.

Syndacate

Alright, so if I can't find anybody selling a whole conversion "kit" - as in, all the parts I need, I'll need:
- Si/CX/HX/DX Prop valve
- Si control arms
- Si brake lines (from last hard-line segment to the caliper)
- Si e-brake cables

I can keep my booster and then everything should just be plug and play?

98civdx

Correct
No need for control arms. They are the same. You need the entire trailing arm from Si.
correct, just the rubber hose
correct.

Yes, all 96-00 civics have identical boosters

RICKSAUTOMOTIVE

well are you doing disc brakes so ????? please tell me why? obviously disc is better and i like to do them for the hell of it, but its a bit involved as you see by the parts list someone posted for you. i would have fixed your old system if this was just a daily driver. (thats just my opinion). your old stuff was probably lacking a few simple maintenance services. however though, i dont know of any kits that make it an easy swap to do disc brakes. its mostly find something at the junk yard and pull it for yours. to me it sounds like you never had the brake fluid changed, and the guys working on them never adjusted the rears from time to time. now your fluid got air in it and the wheel cylinders leaked and blew but the prop valve just got too much pressure when you tried to stop and used all that force. how was the MC?

WillyCivic99

there was a guy here selling the trailing arms and rear disks off a 2000 si for 150. the biggest thing is the proportioning valve if I remember right. someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think your stock one has five lines coming out of it and the one you want only has four. I was looking at doing the same thing on a 99 ek hatch I had. The stock set up for rear drums will send to much pressure to the rear disks. Mind you this is all from memory and I am fairly new to this stuff. Hope it works out.

98civdx

I am unawear of any differences in the lines, I belive all 96-00 prop valves can be bolted in place of each other.
My friend has rear disk on his 97 ex, without replaceing prop valve and his rear calipers dont fully let go.

Syndacate

Ah, yeah, trailing arms, 'tis what I meant.

Okay, I'm not entirely sure where to start with this. First off, I'm the only one who touched the brakes. Secondly, the brakes weren't needing anything - the hardlines were old, and in NY everything (including brake lines) corrodes and rusts, this isn't CA or FL. Thirdly, the parts list is quite straight forward and there's not much to change, it was simply a matter of me not being sure what's interchangeable with what so I know what to look for. I wasn't speaking about "kits" as in pre-made thing, I was just speaking of the going rate of all those parts, as people typically sell all the parts together to create a selling point. This is also my daily driver. Why do I want to put discs on? I'm sick of dealing with drums. Although I never really adjusted them, I've been dealing with drums for quite some time now and never had any back off, typically standard use of the e-brake with some pressure on the drum (making it turn) adjusts them plenty fine...that's why they're auto adjusting. The wheel cylinders are also fine, typically there's a visible crack in the rubber boots if they blow out - there were none, there were gaping holes in the brake lines which points to them. I changed the wheel cylinders anyway.

I'm well aware of all the components and what could happen, what would have happened, and what should have happened, what I'm not aware of, is
A) What parts are interchangeable for disks (which is why I posted here, and seemingly got my answer, unless that's bad info)
B) What caused the spring adjuster to reverse? - The adjuster had to reverse in order to back the shoes out over the course of a month - it doesn't just "happen" or "lack of maintenance" or any of the other key words above. It's possible the shoe slid down enough so the adjuster pushed passed the center axis of the adjuster gear and pushed it down, but I've never seen nor heard of that happening..but I'm thinking that is indeed what happened.

The process isn't involved at all assuming I don't run into any issues. Also, if the wheel cylinders blew out, it wouldn't have built up pressure when I replaced the hoses (it did). Also, there was no air (at least no abnormal amount) in the lines, the pedal was fine short of not having any rear brakes - up until the hoses blew. Also, the MC was perfectly okay, and although I had wanted to change the fluid, it wasn't drastically over due - about a year old is 100% okay.

In short, without sounding like a dick, you're wrong about all of the above. The weak hoses was the reason for the blow out, my mind is simply wondering what caused the adjuster to pull the shoes in, and as I said, shoe slip theory sounds the most sound..

Hrm, $150 for both isn't bad at all, I'll have to look into this prop valve thing you mention.

Hrm, you sure it wasn't just his setup? Half seized caliper sliders? Was this problem fixed with a new prop valve from a different trim? I find it kind of weird that the EX is the only one out of the bunch (especially when you range from the HX to the Si) that had a different prop valve.

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I'm hoping to hear from more people regarding this prop valve issue, as it doesn't make much sense..

Also would be glad to know if anybody heard of shoes pulling like that because the gear reversed, which basically is what happened as there was plenty of meat left on the shoe and it held up fine (and in perfect adjustment) for almost a year, then over the course of a month backed out. The blowout - fine, okay, weak hoses due to corrosion, I can deal with that, but the brakes backing off is just weird...I've never seen an adjuster push that low..especially not happening after a year...although I suppose a wheel jar or something could have caused the issue to arise..anybody hear of this?

RICKSAUTOMOTIVE

its quite alright. i hadnt thought about the new york corrosion on the lines under the car. i dont see that in cali. its all good though

98civdx

Well it very well could be his setup, we wont really know untill we put the 4040 from the si into the car, We have been dreding doing this for sometime. He is runing brand new calipers from shucks,not rebuilt, new calipers, rotors, and bleed by a shop. When I spin his rear wheels we hear a slight grinding sound, which sounds as if the pad is rubing the rotor, it could be something else we just arent sure at this point.

Regarding the prop valve, it is very confusing. There have been serveral experts about breaking who just dont know the differences if any.
It could just be one of those things that the only people that would be able to explain are the engerneers.