dieselengineer

Hey guys - long time reader first time post-er. I'm gonna go ahead and be as detailed as possible so that you don't think I'm just some bum coming in here saying WHY DOESN'T MY CAR START and expecting a magic answer. Also hopefully this will expedite the question/response process.

I am on my first Honda (97 Civic 1.6 SOHC 5-speed) and love my beater. I bought it since I have an 80 mile daily work commute and it has been great to me for 3 years. Until about a month ago.

I was about a mile away from work one morning and stopped at a round about waiting my turn. I noticed the car idling strangely (lower than usual if I remember correctly). I put the car into first, released clutch and hit the gas when the car suddenly died and refused to start. I have a radar detector in my car that reads voltage and it was reading 12.6V after the car died - so not a battery issue. The car would still crank but not start. About 40 miles from home, I had the car towed to a shop near my work and figured I would let them figure out what was wrong with it. They got back to me and told me that it was the distributor. They also told me they first tested for compression so that eliminated my fear of a timing belt.

I towed the car home with my truck a few days later and figured I would change the distributor myself rather than pay them $300+. About 3 weeks later (last week) my distributor came in from RockAuto and I replaced it. Was careful to make sure I put the wires in the correct location on the distributor but OF COURSE (hence why I'm here) it still wouldn't start. I figured that maybe I had run the battery too low from trying to start it several times, and after sitting for a few weeks, so I took the battery to AutoZone. The battery tested fine for CCA, so I had it recharged and got it back today.

Car STILL won't start. Next step - hook up my in-line spark tester. All 4 spark plugs are receiving power (confirms that the timing belt is not snapped and the new distributor is good). I did not pull spark plugs but the car ran fine up to the point that it died so I'm assuming they're fine.

Next thought - if there is spark then it must be a fuel or air issue. I never suspected a fuel issue since I can hear the fuel pump run for a few seconds in accessory mode, but figured I would just check. I know this is not the correct way, but rather than go buy a new tool I just unbolted the banjo fitting on the fuel filter and put the key in accessory. Fuel sprayed everywhere as expected, so I don't think its a fuel pump issue.

Last thought - air delivery. I don't really know how this could be an issue in the way that the car just died but I figured might as well try. I took off the air box but car still won't start. Air filter looks fine as well.

In desperation I started reading online and saw that the main relay may have some cracked solder joints which can cause the fuel pump to turn on but not continue to run? I'm not sure exactly what it said but at this point I'm desperate so I pulled it and check the solder joints. They all look fine.

At this point I have NO CLUE what it could be. I don't think its the starter since it is still cranking and I am getting power at the spark plugs. At this point the only things that I can possibly think that it would be is that either all 4 spark plugs are bad (unlikely) or maybe the fuel is not reaching injectors. I figure it is also highly unlikely that all injectors are clogged. Maybe a fuel pressure regulator stuck closed? I am really reaching here - I'm an engineer trying to be a mechanic.

I figured I would post here and see if anyone has any clue what it could be before I continue to dump unnecessary money into my beater.

Thanks in advance for any help. If I have left out any details just ask.

TomCat39

This is highly probably and would act very much like you described. You have good fuel pressure from the pump etc but the regulator will prevent proper fuel from entering all 4 cylinders.

Spark issue usually runs but rough until it's beyond running plus you checked for spark I think you said.

Plugs, usually all 4 don't go bad simultaneously so one shorts out and it runs rough but runs.

Loss of compression, usually the same thing, will start but run absolutely horridly.

Air problem, well, I don't see how it could choke all 4 cylinders to where it won't start and idle. Even with the throttle plate close, it idles fine. And an intake valve issue usually means timing belt issue and you would have definitely heard something awry and not had your positive spark on all 4 wires etc etc.

I think you nailed the most likely culprit that would affect all 4 cylinders the same. That and the fuel filter.

You might find the following pages helpful for that section of testing (fuel):





Best of luck.

dieselengineer

TomCat - thanks for the quick response. I have never had a failure like this in a car, but I wouldn't think that a fuel filter would fail so suddenly without some indication that it was clogged. I guess a fuel pressure regulator may suddenly seize closed? I just would expect some symptoms prior to complete failure ya know?

I guess this gives me a good excuse to buy a fuel pressure tester from HF tomorrow

TomCat39

I wouldn't think fuel filter either but if it hits below minimum pressure?

Also I don't think the car would start if the head gasket blew between two cylinders. I know the car will run on 3 cylinders, not sure about 2.

If you don't already have a compression tester, I would pick one of those up too. They are cheaper than the fuel pressure gauge usually and is a handy tool to have if you dinker with engine even in the slightest.

eghatch9295

iTrader: (1)

the car would start with a blown hg between 2 cylinders, at least in my experience. a "new" distributor from rockauto, or any parts store for that matter, is not necessarily good. you need to pull the plugs and verify good, clean spark. if that checks out, spray some starter fluid in the intake tube. if that works, you've narrowed it down to fuel. total cost: under $15.

dieselengineer

TomCat
Something came up last night and was not able to get back to the car. The auto shop *said* that they did a compression test and it came back fine. (They also said it was a bad distributor but we see how that went) I don't know how it would be a blown head gasket since I had no symptoms of that prior to sudden engine shutoff. I did not have a chance to run to HF and grab the tools. Doubt I will have time until Thursday or Friday to get there since one isn't close to where I live.

eghatch
I like your idea of spraying starter fluid into the intake. I've never heard of doing this on a EFI car but I will give it a try. Any idea where to pick up that starter fluid? I'm assuming you're talking about ether

eghatch9295

iTrader: (1)

wal mart, virtually any parts store.

TomCat39

Yeah that was a side thought which eghatch9295 put rest to. I wasn't too sure if a double cylinder issue would prevent running but it does not.

The starter fluid is a great easy fast way to see it's a fuel problem but you will still need the fuel pressure gauge to diagnose where the fuel issue is properly.

I was pretty sure you did say compression was reported good but figured if you were at HF picking up the fuel pressure gauge, grabbing the compression tester isn't a bad idea and is cheap and very helpful if you plan on working on your own car.

Really though, you do what works for you.

The FSM pages for your car are above for the fuel system diagnostics.

Best of luck.

dieselengineer

***UPDATE***

Been busy taking care of a new puppy so took me awhile to get back to the car.

I tried starting the car with starter fluid and no luck. At this point I can only imagine that a crank position sensor is bad or it is somehow out of timing? I have heard of the timing belt "jumping" a few teeth somehow. Not sure if this really can happen or not. However I would think that if it was out of timing the compression test that the shop did would have found this.

I may need to do a compression test myself and also check for spark at the plugs, not just using the in-line spark tester. At this point though I have NO CLUE. Someone please tell me that I'm missing something simple here.

TomCat39

You start with the basics then, first things first. Pull the valve cover off to pull your upper timing cover off and verify your mechanical timing.

If you goto the top of the forum there is a How-To button. In there you can find how to's to do timing belt changes, in that how to you should see FSM pages that describe how to set mechanical timing.

However, you don't have to pull your crank pulley or lower timing cover to verify the mechanical timing. Instead align the sites on the lower timing cover to the white mark (the mark away from the 3 marks) on the crank pulley. Then you can look at your cam gear and verify it's still mechanically timed, aka hasn't jumped teeth.

eghatch9295

iTrader: (1)

before you get all nutty, verify clean bright spark. basics first- air, fuel, spark. you have fuel and air, now check for spark

TomCat39

txreap

OK, I am not a gearhead in any respect, but had an issue where my 95 civic died at an intersection. I learned through several non-OEM Ignition Control Modules that the car will crank until the battery dies without turning over no matter what until you replace the ICM. You can buy the Hitachi ICM for $100+/-. Back to not being a gearhead, I have no idea if your engine has this device, but perhaps someone else can confirm/contribute. Good luck.

dieselengineer

Eghatch - removed plugs and they were in pretty bad shape. Replaced them, but it was not the problem as I suspected. At this point I suspect that I stripped some teeth off the belt and it is out of timing. To me, it's the only thing that would make sense since it is still getting spark and have ruled out fuel. I bought the car with 130k miles and naively assumed that the belt had been replaced by then. I suspect that is not the case.

To the last post - the ICM is in the distributor I believe which should be brand new and should be working correctly. Also I do have spark

eghatch9295

iTrader: (1)

is the belt intact?

dieselengineer

Should be right? Distributor is driven off of cam which is driven off timing belt. I'm thinking that it has to be out of timing. Hopefully not so much that it has damaged any valves.

TomCat39

If you don't mind me asking, how did you rule out spark at the spark plug? And did you verify spark quality?

eghatch9295

iTrader: (1)

go check, should take 15 minutes or so

dieselengineer

Sorry guys I know it takes me forever to get back to you but I work an hour away from home and spend daylight at work. And with the new puppy its been a struggle to find 5 minutes to eat a meal much less work on the car.

And TomCat, I have not physically pulled the plugs and turned the car over to watch spark for this very reason since my wife must watch the dog while I'm out. I'm assuming that the test I performed with the in line spark tester and new plugs should rule out spark, but I realize incorrect gap and not enough energy being transferred to the plugs can prevent spark. If it's any consolation I did check gap at .044 before installation. If I get a chance to have some help I will do pull them and look.

dieselengineer

Ok. Had the battery recharged since its cold and was running low. Tried to start again for grins and now it sounds like it is turning over much faster than normal.

Eghatch,
You're saying it should only take 15 mins to check the timing belt right? If so I may do that later today. I figured it was a longer ordeal. Also. GO PACK GO from Indiana

TomCat39

That's sounds about right. Pull the plug wires, pull the 4 nuts holding the valve cover down, pull the two bolts holding the upper timing cover on. Pull the valve cover off, pull the upper timing cover off. Put a 17mm socket on an extension and insert it through the driver side wheel well shroud onto the crank pulley bolt. Begin cranking the crank counter clockwise as you watch the belt on the cam gear.

Align the white mark (single mark away from the 3 marks grouped together) of the crank pulley into the site markers on the lower timing belt cover. Once that is in line, you check the cam gear and verify it aligns with the up pointed up and the 3 and 9 o'clock lines are in their respective marks (varies slightly by engine).

Run through a few revolutions and inspect the belt teeth for wear and tear.

If you pull the spark plugs out, the crank turns much easier.

Also of note, spark plugs is 13 ft-lbs torque on install, the valve cover nuts/bolts is 7 ft-lbs. and the timing cover I tend to-do an 1/8 turn or lightly snug with a 1/4" drive ratchet as the plastic isn't very strong on the nuts.

dieselengineer

Ok, the timing belt looks good, and the timing appears to be correct. Its hard to tell since you can't look at it dead on without raising the motor, but if it's off it is not by much and should still run.

I ordered a remote starter switch so I can test the spark at the plugs without someone else. Until that comes I think I will go to AutoZone and rent a fuel pressure tester.

I know I sprayed starting fluid in the intake, but I'm wondering if maybe it could still possibly be a fuel issue? Or possibly an issue with the injectors not getting the signal to open?

eghatch9295

iTrader: (1)

jump the starter with a piece of at least 10awg wire. no help needed

dieselengineer

Ok.. I downloaded the service manual and was reading the section on changing the distributor. It mentions after installation adjusting the ignition timing which I did not do. I figured the timing was already preset.

eghatch9295

iTrader: (1)

youd have to be so far out of time that you beat the dizzy in with a hammer. pics of installed dizzy?