HXor

178-ish k on it. Fantastic mpg car!
New NGK plugs/wires, rotor/cap & fuel filter. Fresh valve adjustment- used minimum spec gauge .020+/- .002 I, .025+/-.002 E . Idle speed is at 680-700 warm. Jumped service connector and adjusted the timing to the center mark - it was *way* to the right of the pointer. Is this a symptom of a fubar'd attempt of timing adjustment or a skipped tooth or three of the belt? Need to test compression- will be getting a gauge to check soon.
Any ideas from H-T gurus on other possibilities?

Former User

If you are unable to set the ignition timing to the middle red mark on the crank pulley by turning the distributor, then yes you next need to check the mechanical timing because, as you say, the timing belt has likely skipped a tooth.

HXor

Thanks for looking in so quickly!
I was able to set the timing to the center of the three marks and yes it does hold the adjustment. What really throws me off is *why* it was set so far to the right of the pointer? Like 2"!??
I also see when comparing the plugs that the #3 plug has a slight soot(dry not oily wet) near the outer electrode. What might the meaning of this show?

Former User

Okay, the mechanical timing is fine, so compression testing the cylinders may not yet be called for. You should now check fuel injector #3. It may be faulty. Does it have battery voltage? Does it click while the engine is running? Have you tried a Seafoam treatment?

HXor

What should the voltage read and where should it be read from?
No I haven't done the Seafoam as of yet- will pick that up on my way home tonite.
A co-irker is dropping off the compression checker this evening also. May end up being an enlightening and long night

Former User

Disconnect the 2P-connector from fuel injector #3. Turn the key to ON(II) without starting the engine. You should measure 12V from the terminal for the YEL/BLK wire in the wire harness connector using the engine as ground.

If the voltage is fine, purchase a $3-$4 engine stethoscope to check whether injector #3 clicks while the engine is idling. You can compare the normal clicking sound from the other injectors.

HXor

Much appreciated Sir! Will be digging in at shifts end (midnight )

HXor

Aiight: 12.4v at yellow/black stripe wire to all injectors. Have the same sound at all injectors. Local wally's had *no* Seafoam. I have MMO and B12 Chemtool in the garage. Added B12 to the tank...smoothed out the idle But the code popped on the test drive. Not sure what all these mean but here are the codes thrown and read by the ScanGauge XGII
PID's :

1. 02=0303
2. 03=0200 open loop
3. 04=79 LOD 47 (percentage of engine power)
4. 05=74 168° F
5. 06=9C
6. 07=80
7. 08-09 NULL
8. 0A Null
9. 0B=30 MAP psi 7.0
10. 0C= 0EE5 1906 rpm
11. 0D=4F 49 mph
12. 0E NULL
13. 0F=45 IAT 83°
14. 10 NULL
15. 11=28 TPS 15
16. 12-19 NULL
17. PID 1A-20 NULL

Any ideas as to what's next?

Former User

There's still only one code (P0303), right?

Was the engine "acting up" when you were testing the fuel injectors? When a problem is intermittent, you must troubleshoot when the problem is occurring, otherwise you might miss something.

I also noticed that you were running in open loop, although the engine temperature of 168F seemed a bit low at the time. Nonetheless, you might also want to troubleshoot the primary O2 sensor. The diagram below lists some possible causes for P0303.

HXor

Yes just the one code. The the mil was on while I checked for voltage and noise. I pulled all the fuses one by one and checked with a meter , all appear to be good to go. I have yet another new set of Honda wires and rotor button and my stethoscope with me. The car is running like crap today...but no mil/code ? Go figure...
I'm going to check my harnesses and make up some new grounds- the thermostat ground appears mia ? I've heard that can cause issues and its cheap to replace. In the diagram: HO2S is referring to what?

Former User

Heated oxygen sensor (primary)

Was the engine running poorly?

If this critical ground were disconnected, the engine would neither start nor run.

HXor

HO2S - makes perfect sense. I have a service cd *somewhere*- moved recently and its awol at the moment.

Yes - sputtering from off idle to 2500 rpms. Over that it pulls hard (for an HX that is) to 60 mph where is seems to hit a wall and starts sputtering unless over 3k rpms.

is the thermostat ground *in* a harness or concealed from the factory? I may be very incorrect then! The only wires I see are to the sensor.

you're excellent methodical guide- I can't thank you enough



Have the ground cables going on in a few moments. 2ga for batt-chassis and two 4ga trans- chassis/engine-chassis . Would a Big3 upgrade be a plus? I am only one wire away from having it anyway.

Former User

G101 is the thermostat housing ground wire:

HXor

Went and verified G101 is indeed there. The abrasion shielding was covering it right up to the thermostat mounting bolt. It is Very corroded though - I think I'm going to add a 4ga from the housing to the strut tower. Should there be a ground wire from the valve cover to the block/radiator support? I've searched hundreds of threads here and several posts mention a #11 and a #4 wire at the valve cover. This HX has none on the valve cover.

Former User

HXor

Ok then - grounds are all in place. 2nd set of Honda wires and rotor are on. Rechecked valve lash ,idle speed and timing. All checked in spec. All four plugs have a carbon soot build up at the thread base (piston chamber) and the #3 has a large soot spot on the ceramic near the center electrode. Test drive- obligatory mil appeared. P0303 and now add P0304 and 1300. Checked the injectors for clicking - good. Voltage reads... 14.00-14.31v. 12v was what is stated, or is that nominal?

Former User

Can you post clear pictures of all four spark plugs? That might help. Do you see oil in cylinders #3 and #4? Again, when were the plugs, wires, cap, and rotor last replaced (OEM?)? You might want to reinspect them all and check resistance of the plug wires.

Do you also measure 14V from the battery posts?

HXor

Tried for pics on the plugs- too dark to see anything . Pre-start batt v is 12.7v. Running it varies between 14.0-14.3v so that matches injector v.
The piston tops look like 100k+ pistons -some carbon but no oily wet.
Previous wires/cap/rotor were new 1 month ago-this set on now new yesterday( I like spares ) and are oem Honda.

Former User

It might be interesting to switch fuel injectors #1 and #2 with fuel injectors #3 and #4 to see whether you now get misfire codes from #1 and #2.

You also might want to test your coil and ICM in the distributor. What doesn't fit with this idea, however, is misfiring in 2 cylinders rather than all 4 cylinders.

Have you checked whether the port and passage for the EGR valve might be clogged?

If these ideas don't pan out, you should check the CKF sensor and do compression/leak down tests.

HXor

I've been shying away from the coil and icm just for the fact it hasn't been for all cylinders...stranger things have happened though. The icm has a yellow tint to the reluctor vanes but I have noticed some of the vanes have a 'light' powdery rust on them- could this present an issue with the icm? Either way, testing them is easy and free .
The EGR I have not looked at - it is a possibility, especially with the number of miles on the car and the great "care" that its been given <sarcasm>. I'm also familiar with the crank position sensor - I've replaced a few on previous vehicles, but I've never tested one. This HX has been a great brush up on skillz and learning a few 'new' things lol. I will prevail

HXor

hmm curious about the distributor. When turning the rotor left-right or up-down *how much* play is allowable? This has quite a bit of left-right play(meaning I can turn it by hand 1/2" or more) and a noticeable (.003+" ) up-down.

HXor

Pothole987

my neighbour had this problem with his car. the injector shorted out, he replaced it, then had to replace his ECU because it shorted something out in there.
i would say test for resistance over the 3rd injector.

HXor

input appreciated! are you meaning across the injector terminals themselves?

HXor

if I'm testing the resistance correctly - .0117(2k scale) or 11.7(200 ohm scale) at each injector.
Hitachi Coil: primary winding = .7 ohms (my 200 ohm scale "zeros" at .2 tho?) still on high side correct?
secondary winding = 26.4 ohms - which should be good.