EJ2-Fluffy

iTrader: (1)

So, I have been riding around town and just replaced the civic power rack with an integra power rack. In the past, I switched out the stock civic suspension to some Front and Rear Integra (DC 94-01) LCA, added stock integra sway bars, eibach sportlines, and some KYB AGX.

Symptoms: Car pulls to the right (on acceleration load) and sometime veers left just for driving on the road (usually pulls when it hits bumps, small crevices or potholes). I understand that Civic/Integra tend to tramline, follow uneven payment on the ground. My spec sheet came back from Firestone and the Caster does not register on the chart.

<Ill post up a spec sheet when I have the time>

Suspension specs:
- KYB AGX (all around) w/ stock tophats
- Eibach Sportlines (seem like they are getting tired)
- Upper Arm Camber Kits (Aftermarket arm with movable joint)
- Rear Camber Kits
- 15x6.5 rims with 195/50/15 tires

Now from what I researched, there are no caster adjustments for 92-95 Civics / 94-01 Integras without use of a traction bar. In fact, these cars do not have radius rods to begin with. Caster is usually due to damaged suspension components (bent LCA, bent upper arm, mispositioned upper arm, knuckles, etc). I read that you can get more caster adjustment by switching around the upper arms from driver's side to passenger's side, or vice versa.

Is it viable to go ahead and switch the sides of the upper arms, will it fix the problem?

Thanks and please chime in 94eg! or Tyson.

Thanks,
--Jon

SoCal EJ1

I have custom upper control arms, which I have reversed to increase caster. I do feel it tramline a little, but corner in/corner out response is much improved. What type of front UCAs do you have?

EJ2-Fluffy

iTrader: (1)

@Socal EJ1 - Skunk2 UCA for 92-95 civic.

EJ2-Fluffy

iTrader: (1)

Anyone else, looking for a resolution or links I can run by.

EJ2-Fluffy

iTrader: (1)

Hmm bump

EJ2-Fluffy

iTrader: (1)

...

waaBAAH

as long as your caster angles are within .5 of each other (and not negative numbers) i dont see any issues. please post what those numbers are when you get a chance. anythign greater then .5 cross caster "may" cause a pull to the more negative number.

same thign with camber... anything greater then .5 cross "may" pull to the more positve number side. please post those as well because your pulling could be due to that.

now toe.. rear toe can cause a "drift" sensation whcih feels like a pull. post rear toe numbers...the should be even from left to right.

you state your car is pulling while accelerating. this isnt an alignment fault. pulling while accelerating is a loose component or bad sus[ension part. there are alot of parts on yoru vehilce that can and will cause a pull while accel or deccel. number one cause is halfshafts, then control arm bushings, then motor mounts.

pulling while accel is also diffucult to diag on a FWD car since this is also considered "torque steer". torque steer is from uneven lentgh halfshafts. so if your pulling while accel is minor...i would let it be and not do anything. if it is severe i would try to diagnois it starting at halfhsfats.

you have a good tire combo... nothign to extreme but we dont know your offset or the rims. rim offset can play a huge part in your "tramlining" where the vehicle follows the cracks. this is normal for bad offsets, bigger tires, wider rims and so on.

as for your caster adjstments.. there are a style of adjustments for the upper control arm bushing. you can and will be able to adjust camber and caster this way. turn the front bushing outward most with the kit, and the rear inward most. this will give you maximum caster possible for that side of the car. there is nothing wrong with the most positve caster you can create on yoru car. it will help it corner better and stability at speed this way.

hopw this answers some of your questions.

EJ2-Fluffy

iTrader: (1)

Here is the specs on it. (6/3/09 - Firestone alignment..they've done a nice job in the past for my particular vehicle)

Front left (Actual | Before)
Camber: 0.1 | 0.2
Caster: 0.4 | 0.4
Toe: 0.06 | -3.47

Front right (Actual | Before)
Camber: -0.6 | -0.5
Caster: OUT OF SPEC (0.0*) | OUT OF SPEC (0.0*)
Toe: 0.11 | -0.76

Front Total (Actual | Before)
Cross Camber:
Cross Caster:
Total Toe: 0.17 | OUT OF SPEC (-4.23*)

This is what I have so far (I will get the pic of sheet at home)

EJ2-Fluffy

iTrader: (1)

now that i look at that ... -_-

waaBAAH

4 inches of toe out to start with? wow!! either they installed a new part or you do really have a bad part.

so did you or firestone install a new part besides lowering the car?

the left front toe is out of wack on the printout..but this doenst mean anything as actually it could be the right side. the intial toe reading only works if the tech striahgtened out the steering wheel after his caster sweep. this is mostly never done as they really dont care since they have to adjust angles anyhow and toe is the last angle to adjust. if you need me to clarify this let me know.

caster being zero on the right side is weird..there is somehting worng there. yo ushoulod never ever have zero or negative caster. this could explain why the car is "squirmy and unstable"

the vehicle may be pulling left while cruising with the sttering wheel to the right to compensate for that pull due tro camber.

i say to get the eccentric bushings for your upper control arm. yo uwould be able to adjust camber and caster on that side (right side). you more then likely have a bent upper control arm or bent knuckle...it will be very hard to visually see since it is out of spec slightly compared to the left side.

EJ2-Fluffy

iTrader: (1)

@wahBAAH The reason for the toe being out of spec is because I replaced the rack and pinion on the car from a civic power rack to an integra rack (forgot to reset the toe back to tolerable measurements).

On the caster, Im using Skunk 2 Arms for 92-95 civic (newer style). The reason it is zero because the machine couldn't pick out the measurement and defaults to 0.0. That is why its marked Out of spec and has 0.0*.

Hmm, do you think the LCA could be bent -OR- the bushings that connect the upper arm to the chassis of the car were installed wrong?

EJ2-Fluffy

iTrader: (1)

Hmm I should tell Firestone to keep camber at -.5 at all time

EJ2-Fluffy

iTrader: (1)

OK, does the position of the shock (rotated on the above perch that connects to the chassis) affect caster?

EJ2-Fluffy

iTrader: (1)

OK, so I managed to take apart the passenger front front suspension.

When I removed the shock from the LCA mount point, the shock seems like it is twisting and does not run parallel to fit into the mounting holes on the LCA.

Does this position of the shock relative to the LCA mount point affect caster?

speckles

im actually going over this in my school right now

i dont see how they couldnt pick up the camber (if they picked up the camber degree's they could have gotten the caster when doing a Caster/Toe sweep)

As for the pull to the right, that is cause a car will tend to drift or wander to the side with the most POSITIVE Caster. So if the left side is say .7* and the right is 1* it will wander right.

0-.5* difference means a slight drift or wander
.5* and up, and you have a STRONG pull.

as for adjusting caster on civics I really dunno. but MAYBE adjusting the torsion bar (I dunno if EG's have them, I am used to 4th gen's) or something like that will help with it. or getting LCA's that where MEANT for the Civic and not integra (if they interchange)

but as for what I think it wrong, you have WAY more caster on the passenger side and so its pulling hard. Subscribed So I know the outcome of this

waaBAAH

anytrhing greater then .5 cross (camber or caster) "MAY" cause a pull. that isnt saying it does or doesnt. it possibly could cause a pull.

it doenst have way mroe caster.. it actual has way less caster tehn spec on the right side.

caster is the angle if you draw a line through the two pivot points on the steering axis. so in this case if you draw a line from your upper balljoint to your lower balljoint as viewed from the side.. that is the angle of caster.

zero caster means your upper balljoint is directly over your lower balljoint. this is bad. the reason this is bad is because you have to think of caster like this.....

a harley chopper or whatever has TONS of positive caster. he can drive just fine and is stable on the highway. stable enough wheer he could let go of the handlebars and steer with little effort.

a shopping cart wheel on the other hand has negative caster. ever notice how that wheel shakes back and forth...shimmies even. and just think that is at 10 mph max!.

so that is the stablity section of where positve caster is excellent way to enjoy your highway experience.

also poisitve caster helps camber roll for increased steering traction but harder to turn the wheel. (big deal that you have to turn the wheel harder with more force). going back to the "harley" idea.. if that harley was to turn the wheel on the bike the front tire will roll over (camber roll) more since caster is so high. this increases traction since the road force on the edge of the tire is harder to overcome. now bring this to a civic design.... civics have wishbone suspension. the wishbone suspension helps camber roll by its design so that is why spec for caster is so low on these cars.

as for whats bent?.. im really unsure.. it is such a small fraction of a cross that you are not going to tell by "looking" at the parts. you have to measure. take measurements of certain components. i beleive somehting is out of spec on the right side. that something has to be bent inward at top of tire (since things dont bend or stretch outward) AND it has to be bend backwards (since things dotn bend forward unless your going in reverse. lol

so inward at top and backward from the side would indicate upper control arm or bent strut or bent knuckle. it cant be the lower control arm since if you were to bend the lower control arm inward (not stretch it) you would see a positive number for camber. this isnt the case.

now firestone cant adjust for camber since cambwer is non factory adjustable. you can buy upper control arm eccentrics to adjust for camber and caster but you will be hiding the true problem of a bent part.

EJ2-Fluffy

iTrader: (1)

My car has an adjustable upper arm.

I will check for something bent again.
Something doesn't make sense.

Thank you for the explanation. As soon as I get all these front suspension stuff fixed, I will swap the UCAs and see how it feels with increased positive caster.

Thanks will keep updated.

speckles

I will be watching this lol

But if you DO drive it, do this, go to a parking lot (empty would be good) and get to about 25 mph. Now let go of the wheel. If you have to hold the wheel instantly as it just wants to fly to the side, then its more than .5* but if it SLOWLY goes to one side, its less than .5*. And the UCA would have NOTHING to do with the caster. It moves the knuckles in or out. Not forward or back. to adjust caster you would need to get a solid upper strut mount, and have it set up to adjust the strut forward and back.

EJ2-Fluffy

iTrader: (1)

First of all, this is a stock vehicle and its lowered on Eibach Sportlines.

I see many guys running normal plug and play spring setups and shocks with the integra rack and pinion.

I want to see the solution using stock components (because yes I know there is a solution) and want to know the source of the problem and not band aids to the problem like adding more adjustment.

If I wanted more positive caster, I could always switch the Upper Arm locations from Drivers to Passengers, and vice versa.

It pulls quite a bit at 25mph. It is more then the .5* (I already know this).

speckles

What way is it pulling? left or right? that will show you the problem right there. It will follow the side with the most positive caster. Even if you did switch the UCA all it will do is give you negative caster, but still make you go right unless it IS the UCA. maybe a taking a few measurements of the UCA's will help as one may be bent a tad bit?

EJ2-Fluffy

iTrader: (1)

Ok so I did another test from above.

If I am rolling at 25mph and do not touch the accelerator, it will roll straight (unless you hit a bump then it will move left or right).

If I am at 25mph and touch the accelerator, it will pull right.

Also, when rolling on the freeway at 65+ mph, the car will pull right...sometimes when hitting bumps it will seem to wander to the left.

Well im not sure how the UCA could get bent, this car has not been in any accident from when I owned it. Also when I first purchased, the car did not pull at all.

speckles

Ok I need to correct myself

Camber - Side with most NEGATIVE Will create a Drift (0.0* to 0.5*)or Pull (0.5* and up)

Caster - Side with the most POSITIVE Will create a Drift (0.0* to 0.5*)or Pull (0.5* and up)

I always get the two mixed up.

EJ2-Fluffy

iTrader: (1)

My camber is set to 1* on the passenger side to compensate for pull.
My car must be pulling or drifting to the left due to the 0.4* on the driver's side.

Ahh this car would be so much enjoyable once I get this suspension fixed.

Positive news: the integra rack and pinion feels good compared to the civic rack and pinion.

EJ2-Fluffy

iTrader: (1)

BTW, thanks for the support guys. This is Honda-tech right? We will get this thing fixed in no time (hopefully).

waaBAAH

civic suspension is wishbone suspension. the caster line on the civic is drawn from the upper balljoint to the lower balljoint. it is not drawn from the upper strut mount.

if you move the upper balljoint it will effect camber and caster on this vehicle.

since you already have an eccentric for the upper control arm on the right side.. move the front most eccentric towards you. then get another alignemnt check and tell teh technician that cmaber and caster are adjustable. most techs think "civic...toe and go" and they dotn even look since camber and caster are non adjustable from the factory.

or even take it back to firestone and say...camber and caster are adjustable...why is caster out of spec?