civic402lx

1995 lx sedan. Rear disc conversion from a 95 EX.
40/40 prop valve. Brand new reman masters cylinder from autozpne, MC is a 15/16 bore for a 91 civic. original booster.
pads and rotors are not very old..still very thick..
bench bled mc before install
Bleeding procedure, 2 man.
RR, FL, RL, FR..
Went through 32oz bottle of fluid

Car off pedal is firm. Very firm.
Start car, pedal sink a little but pedal is not firm.
Car will stop slowly, even if slam on pedal hard. Tried at different speed. Still soft. Not spongy or sink to floor.
But cant get pedal to firm up while engine is running.
Booster checked out, followed FSM for testing. All pass..
No leak on brake lines, prop valve, or anywhere.
Not loosing fluid from reservoir either..

Don't know what else to try. Will try bleeding again later.
Any suggestions?

TIA


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x.l.r.8

What pads do you have. Do they need to get some heat in them to work. Cheap or race pads will take a while to bite

civic402lx

Honestly, I don't remember which pads are on them. Its been a while since I worked on them. I have some spare ebc green pads brand new, I can swap out if need be..

eghatch9295

iTrader: (1)

3 possibilities- 1- bad bleed, either of lines or m/c. 2- defective reman'd vatozone m/c. 3- lines not completely tightened @ m/c.

civic402lx

Could be.
I did the booster check by pumping couple time to set firm. Then hold. The pedal stayed firm after more then 30sec. Could that what rule out faulty MC?
Rechecked brake lines on MC, secured. I had use the 10mm flare nut wrench to tighten it. Pretty tight and secured.
Is there another way to check the reman'd MC for faulty? No leak at booster or inside car. All bleeder screws are tight. Bleed til no air bubbles..

Would old rotors and pads be issue? One rear rotor and pads look a little worn with groove in it.

I forgot to mentioned this car had sat for a bout a year with very very little movement. I had this brake issue on going a while prior to this weekend when I decided to redo the MC and rebled. The new MC works better then the OEM 13/16 on it. Which I had purchased from Honda last year. Long story short, after lots of searching. People said I need 15/16 Bore MC, 4040 prop valve. To make it work good for the rear disc conversion..

During this project, I had also clean up the rear calipers, clean the pistons and seals, then relube prior to reinstallation. I removed the piston off the caliper and use wire wheel to clean off the rust build up. Both rear caliper operates smooth. Turn smoothly. With caliper not install over pads. While pumping the brake we can see the piston push out smooth, then we turn the piston back in. We also re greased all sliding pins.

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mk378

Is there any rust on the friction surface of the rotors? The "ring of rust" syndrome can kill performance since only a small area of the pad is actually doing anything.

If it were stock, I would say that if the pedal does not go to the floor no matter how hard you press it, hydraulics are OK but there is a friction problem.

civic402lx

One rear disc does have one rust ring size of a thumbtack needle, and one smaller ring next to it. Other disc are smooth. I would think stopping issue wouldnt be as much if other 3 disc are fine.

civic402lx

To echo the pedal doesn't sink to the floor. I just went to try and it does not sink. Even with engine running. I decided to take off the rear disc and get it resurface plus new pads. Here are photo of the rotors front and back.
front


​​​​​​front pads


Rear rotors


Forgot to get pix of pads.. Was in a hurry to get it off to the shop.

Spoke with the mechanic and he said since the car been sat for a while, the front rotor just have surface rust, drive the car and it will clean that off. Spray brake cleaner in between trip to help rid the surface rust. No need to turn the rotor. But the rear definitely needed resurface.

civic402lx

UPDATE:
Apparently the rear rotors were in rough shape and so were the pads. After rotors resurfaced, new pads front and rear. Then one last bleeding for safe measure, now the pedal feel much better but still not as firm as my other civic(98 lx).
with engine running, pedal will be at half way travel then it will start to stop the car. I can slam on the brake now and it will stop better compare to yesterday.
anything else I can try?
now the break-in begins for the new pads. I hope it get firmer after this break-in period..

My other civic feel like the brake will start to engage at 1/3 pedal travel. Then again it still got drum in the back. Pedal feel much firmer.

civic402lx

Still searching for firm pedal.
brake pads use is EBC Green Stuff for fronts and standard Advance auto part for rears.
Pads are bedded in. Stop good but still not firm. No leak.
Firm when engine off.
Engine on, pedal travel 1inch then firm.
Wanting to reduce that 1in travel. Firm up more before 1in.

Suggestion?

mk378

You may need to adjust the plunger that comes out of the booster and presses the piston in the master cylinder. It should be set so that it just does not touch the master cylinder when the pedal is not pressed, but not have a lot of extra travel.

If you adjust it too tight, the brakes (likely all 4) will start to drag after a period of driving.

BryanM.

iTrader: (1)

I have tried so many things over the years and but one thing is for certain:

92-00 Civic brake pedals feel soft. Period.

Now I too have had a 5th gen and a 6th gen at the same time and I did notice the older models had a slightly softer pedal feel...but not by much.

The only thing I never tried was braided soft lines, but I highly doubt it will firm up the pedal to the degree you're seeking.


These items did help, along with an anual fluid change:

new/reman calipers
new/reman MC
new wheel cylinders (drum brakes)
correctly adjusted shoes (drum brakes)
EBC greens (really like these pads)

Altogether it was just a bit of firmness that I gained from all that

civic402lx

Gotcha, it may be normal then. Drove fine. Stop fine.
i guess I will live with it and move on. I've done just about everything, except throwing brand new caliper at it. I did rebuild one of the rear caliper due to sticking. That helped some. All other calipers are in working order.

94 Civic Si

Is that correct bleed sequence? Brake bleed is supposed to start furthest from MC to closest, eh? Typically this means Pass Rear, Driver Rear, Pass Front, Driver Front. ABS can change that...

Joseph Michaud

You aren't going to like this if the same thing happened to you that happened to me.

How hard are you pressing on the pedal to bleed the brakes? I blew out a brand new MC pressing down *hard* thinking it would help move the air through the line. Are you going through fluid but it's not leaking? That could be a leak into the booster. I ended up replacing the MC and booster for doing something I thought was a smart idea.

Soft and try to avoid going to the floor all the way when bleeding them. Big lesson learned for me.

Outside of that... It doesn't sound like air in the lines, that usually makes them spongy, not firm. I'm inclined to think if the issue isn't with the MC, you are more likely to have a blockage in your line, or maybe a caliper is seized. If it bled out fairly easily, it's probably not a blockage unless it's in the caliper.

civic402lx

I used my 96 FSM for the sequence. Plus, I've also done the same sequence you posted. I actually did your first. Then later did the FSM. Same result.

I placed a block of 2x4 behind the brake pedal. That way I'm not smashing it while bleeding the lines.
No fluid lost, same level for the past months. No leak in the booster. All lines are tight and secured.

Always used 2 person method. I did 5-7x per corner, following FSM sequence. Always kept reservoir full. I wanted to make extremely sure no air was left.

also did the fast slam on brake on an empty lot, trying to mimic extreme fast braking situation, to loosen up anything that may have stuck in the calipers or line. No change..

BryanM.

iTrader: (1)

These MCs are so spongy that any added resistance along the way is going to magnify the spongy feel.

An old caliper may add resistance even if it works and doesn't leak.

Also, if the caliper/bracket/hub surface/disc aren't very square to each other, the pedal may feel soft and the brakes may not work well until the pads are bedded in completely. A pad riding on a rust ring won't help either.