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94 EX Sedan Refresh: A Series of Unfortunate Events

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Old 12-19-2016, 03:59 PM   #1
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Icon6 94 EX Sedan Refresh: A Series of Unfortunate Events

**FIRST UPDATE**
This thread has progressed so far that the title will be changed and this will become my dedicated refresh thread! Stay tuned!

Good evening, guys! I'm not new here, been around for years under a different username. I've had multiple Hondas, including a 2001 Prelude SH, a daily beater 97 EX (totaled by Bambi), a 95 LSVTEC coupe (also totaled by Bambi) and after years away from Hondas, I recently bought a 94 manual EX Sedan. Car has a fresh, albeit cheap, paint job with some halfway repaired rust, the tan interior is in better shape than most cars half its age. Runs and drives great, just makes some noise... Now, to my point. After a couple days driving the car, I've noticed a strange noise coming from the trans. After hours of research I've narrowed it down to the main shaft bearing, possibly the counter shaft bearing also. I've found the Honda part numbers, but I'm trying to find the actual bearing designations (i.e. 6205, 6307, etc). Reason being, the stores dept where I work stocks thousands of bearings and I may be able to find them for free.

Also, when I search the part numbers on Amazon, none of them are said to fit the 94. Doesn't make sense. Can anyone offer any advice? Thanks

Jesse

** SECOND UPDATE**
For anyone who reads this in the future, for the S20 trans, the correct Honda part numbers for the Main Shaft Bearing and Seal are 91002-PS0-013 and 91216-PL3-005, respectively.

Last edited by LiteraCola; 02-08-2017 at 05:15 AM.
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Old 12-19-2016, 07:42 PM   #2
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Default re: 94 EX Sedan Refresh: A Series of Unfortunate Events

Honda Automotive Parts

The bearing on the outside end of the input shaft, part #12, is usually most of the problem. Of course if you can be without the car for a while, take the transmission apart and inspect all the bearings before ordering any.
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Old 12-19-2016, 08:21 PM   #3
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Default re: 94 EX Sedan Refresh: A Series of Unfortunate Events

Been in the game long enough but you use other sources to look for Honda part #'s?
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Old 12-20-2016, 03:35 AM   #4
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Default re: 94 EX Sedan Refresh: A Series of Unfortunate Events

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking... I usually find the part numbers and then shop around on Amazon or the like. If I can save money by using parts that my facility stocks, I'm going to do it. I work in a large coal-fired power station and we have thousands (literally) of bearings in stock that we use every day... Timken, Fafnir, ***, no cheap chinese crap.


Let me break down my issue here. Start the car, clutch in, no noise. Release the clutch in neutral an the sound stars immediately. First gear, release the clutch to take off and there's no noise until 2k RPM. Clutch in, shift to 2nd, no noise until the clutch is out and you're accelerating. Doesn't seem like it would be the throwout bearing. The previous owner claimed to have installed a new "clutch kit", and I don't know why anyone would go through the trouble of replacing the clutch and not change the throwout bearing also. Anyways, there's my issue.

Last edited by LiteraCola; 12-20-2016 at 06:11 AM.
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Old 12-20-2016, 06:30 AM   #5
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Default re: 94 EX Sedan Refresh: A Series of Unfortunate Events

I think i may have my old 6th Gen (97) CX bearings laying around. I could check when I get home.

I've got one sitting on my desk at work but I don't remember which bearing it was. Pretty sure it's the ISB based on pictures. It's an NTN bearing. Outter Race Says "Japan ZC NTN SX04A34VI" Inner Race Says "TM-" Again, this came from a 97 CX.

This is a picture of it but it's the wrong side.



FYI I replaced all but the two bearing under the mainshaft nut 90,000 miles ago. I couldn't get the nut, off. That reduced the noise but didn't eliminate it. It's gotten a lot louder since. But it's still going.
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Old 12-20-2016, 06:36 AM   #6
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Default re: 94 EX Sedan Refresh: A Series of Unfortunate Events

Ouch! That looks pretty rough! So it looks like I may no be able to find a common bearing designation. Oh well, I'll get it apart and see what I find. Thanks!


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I think i may have my old 6th Gen (97) CX bearings laying around. I could check when I get home.

I've got one sitting on my desk at work but I don't remember which bearing it was. Pretty sure it's the ISB based on pictures. It's an NTN bearing. Outter Race Says "Japan ZC NTN SX04A34VI" Inner Race Says "TM-" Again, this came from a 97 CX.

This is a picture of it but it's the wrong side.



FYI I replaced all but the two bearing under the mainshaft nut 90,000 miles ago. I couldn't get the nut, off. That reduced the noise but didn't eliminate it. It's gotten a lot louder since. But it's still going.
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Old 12-20-2016, 09:55 AM   #7
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Icon3 re: 94 EX Sedan Refresh: A Series of Unfortunate Events

I've been browsing Rock Auto looking for a few odds and ends, and I came across a Timken rebuild kit for my trans for around $100! I'll probably wait until after Christmas and give it a whirl. Pulling the trans out of a Civic can't be nearly as bad as pulling one out of a C5 Corvette!

What do you mean, you couldn't get the nut off? Too tight? Incorrect tools? Just trying to figure out what I could be getting into.
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Old 12-20-2016, 10:34 AM   #8
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I've been browsing Rock Auto looking for a few odds and ends, and I came across a Timken rebuild kit for my trans for around $100! I'll probably wait until after Christmas and give it a whirl. Pulling the trans out of a Civic can't be nearly as bad as pulling one out of a C5 Corvette!

What do you mean, you couldn't get the nut off? Too tight? Incorrect tools? Just trying to figure out what I could be getting into.

Yeah if it's only $100 might as well jump in and just buy them. Post up the codes when you do.

Incorrect tools and lack of experience. Didn't have a big enough impact socket and no one to hold the shaft to try and get it with the channel locks.
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Old 12-20-2016, 12:08 PM   #9
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Default re: 94 EX Sedan Refresh: A Series of Unfortunate Events

Gotcha. I'll definitely post up the part numbers and everything to help the others out in the future!
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Old 12-22-2016, 10:35 AM   #10
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Default re: 94 EX Sedan Refresh: A Series of Unfortunate Events

Might help: https://honda-tech.com/forums/transm...ement-3163764/

I know exactly what you mean, though, OP. The codes printed on bearings help you find the exact replacement part. Doesn`t need to be ordered through Honda. You can save a ton of $$, just make sure you`re getting a quality brand replacement part. FYI I think you can search on rockauto.com for the bearing you`re after and they sometimes show the bearing code.
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Old 12-25-2016, 07:27 AM   #11
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Default re: 94 EX Sedan Refresh: A Series of Unfortunate Events

Most of the those bearings aren't available from an industrial bearing supplier, I've tried before. They'll have a good NTN part number, but there's usually one oddball dimension and they aren't stocked (or available) in normal distribution channels.

I have seen a bad pilot bearing behave like a bad ISB before as well.

These transmissions are stupidly easy to take apart and rebuild, especially if you've ever taken apart any other transmission. Make sure you change the seal that goes under the ISB as well.
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Old 12-28-2016, 10:23 AM   #12
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Default re: 94 EX Sedan Refresh: A Series of Unfortunate Events

@94EG8,

You are absolutely correct about oddball dimensions and proprietary parts. I have updated my original post with correct part numbers for the S20 trans. I ran into a similar issue when my GE top load washer started making noises that resembled a jet liner in my laundry room! The tub bushing was bad but the main transmission bearing was the true culprit. You can't buy JUST the bearing; you have to spend $175+ on an entire transmission. We had bearings here at work, but the ID was too small by about .010". All other dimensions were correct... so I decided to use a small sanding wheel and bored the bearing out, heated it and slipped it on the shaft (no homo). Still working to this day.

I went ahead and ordered a pilot bearing, oil pan gasket and rear main seal. Hell, whats one more job while the trans is out of the way?! The previous owner claimed that it had a new clutch in it, but he was less than informative on a few other issues with the car... So I may even end up swapping the clutch while everything is apart!
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Old 12-28-2016, 10:30 AM   #13
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Default re: 94 EX Sedan Refresh: A Series of Unfortunate Events

In this post in the transmission section I posted a picture of the old and new NTN ISB bearing from the S20 transmission.

https://honda-tech.com/forums/transm.../#post49052021

But even if you can get the numbers, it sounds like you won't be able to find a cross referenced Timken bearing or whatnot.

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Old 12-29-2016, 08:02 AM   #14
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Default re: 94 EX Sedan Refresh: A Series of Unfortunate Events

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Originally Posted by TomCat39 View Post
In this post in the transmission section I posted a picture of the old and new NTN ISB bearing from the S20 transmission.

https://honda-tech.com/forums/transm.../#post49052021

But even if you can get the numbers, it sounds like you won't be able to find a cross referenced Timken bearing or whatnot.

Attachment 427047
My bad, man. I must've missed that comment! That bearing is definitely specialty.
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Old 12-29-2016, 04:56 PM   #15
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Default re: 94 EX Sedan Refresh: A Series of Unfortunate Events

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The correct Honda bearing's dimensions are 26 x 58 x 15 so a random 205 bearing will not work.
I am not so sure your measurements are accurate. Direct from NTN Americas:

Item # 5A-6TM-6205/26V150, Single Row Radial Ball Bearing - Open Type On NTN Bearing Corp. of America

Item # 5A-6TM-6205/26V150, Single Row Radial Ball Bearing - Open Type

d
0.9843 in
25.000 mm
D
2.0472 in
52.000 mm
B
0.5906 in
15.000 mm
r
0.0394 in
1.000 mm
r1
0.0197 in
0.500 mm
da min
1.1811 in
30.000 mm
da max
1.2598 in
32.000 mm
Da max
1.8504 in
47.000 mm
ras max
0.0394 in
1.000 mm

The number exactly matches the bearing I put into my 92-95 S20/P20 A000 small bearing case for the ISB. 6205 26V150

25mm x 52mm x 15mm

But likely even more important is the load rating specs that may pose a challenge:

Static Load Rating
1760 lbf
7850 N
7.85 kN

Dynamic Load Rating
3150 lbf
14000 N
14.00 kN
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Old 12-30-2016, 04:26 AM   #16
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Not sure why it didn't post the first time.... but this is direct from the Honda site.
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Old 12-30-2016, 04:54 AM   #17
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Default re: 94 EX Sedan Refresh: A Series of Unfortunate Events

That's the inside end input shaft bearing. It may also be bad, but really the first bearing to go is always the one on the outside end, a known weak link in these transmissions. The helical cut gears put a large axial force on the outside bearing, which is why it has a special design.
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Old 12-30-2016, 07:18 AM   #18
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That's the inside end input shaft bearing. It may also be bad, but really the first bearing to go is always the one on the outside end, a known weak link in these transmissions. The helical cut gears put a large axial force on the outside bearing, which is why it has a special design.
Are you referring to the bearing actually pressed onto the main shaft and not the one pressed into the housing? It doesn't really matter. At this point, it's all speculation until I get the damn thing apart. I have my truck to drive and I plan on the car being down for at least two weeks, maybe even three.
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Old 12-30-2016, 10:28 AM   #19
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the first bearing to go is always the one on the outside end, a known weak link in these transmissions.
No it isn't. I've taken apart tons of these things, very rarely do I see that bearing go bad. I have seen tons on the inside end of the mainshaft go bad though, nearly every one I've ever taken apart.

But yes, it's all speculation until it comes apart.
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Old 12-30-2016, 04:59 PM   #20
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Not sure why it didn't post the first time.... but this is direct from the Honda site.
Wonder why my ISB bearing is the 6205 bearing and not the 58mm bearing you pull up?

I bought the bearing from the dealer and it fit perfectly.

Is it the ISB that is different between the B000 and the A000 cases? For whatever reason I thought it was the differential bearings that were different between the two.
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Old 12-31-2016, 04:22 AM   #21
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Is it the ISB that is different between the B000 and the A000 cases? For whatever reason I thought it was the differential bearings that were different between the two.
Diff bearings and the countershaft bearing below the one with the snap ring (same dimensions, but the B000 is a roller bearing instead of a ball bearing)
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Old 01-05-2017, 08:52 AM   #22
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Default re: 94 EX Sedan Refresh: A Series of Unfortunate Events

Well, gentlemen. I tore the trans apart last night, checking all the bearings and a few clearances (using a guide I found on Honda-Acura). The insides looked surprisingly clean, considering the mileage and age of the car! All the bearings were fine, except of course for the main shaft bearing on the inboard side of the trans. Replaced it, and the seal, and started getting it back together. However, I am having quite a bit of trouble getting the case back together. No matter what I do I can't seem to get Satan's snap ring back in place, and the case won't go together. Anyone have any tips on how to accomplish this? I'm very familiar with snap rings and how they work, but I've never come across one that only has a the opening visible.

I also found my shifting issue; of course it's a busted pressure plate spring. The previous owner was obviously lying when he told me there was a new clutch in there. I tried to upload a short video, but it won't work. But you get the picture. Sheesh



Last edited by LiteraCola; 04-03-2017 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:05 AM   #23
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For the snap ring, you settle the case into place, then you spread the snap ring to just barely go over and catch open on the shaft. You'll notice the end of the shaft is bevelled. Once you have the snap ring actually onto the wider part of the bevel you can grab the transmission, turn it over and bounce it on the ground lightly and the weight and bump will cause the shaft to fall into place. You will hear the blessed snap of the snap ring clicking into it's home groove of the shaft.

Trying to do all that within 5 minutes of laying down the bead of "The Right Stuff" is not the most pleasant. Once done though, you do up the bolts and sigh a big sense of relief.
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:07 AM   #24
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Default re: 94 EX Sedan Refresh: A Series of Unfortunate Events

I couldn't get the snap ring pliers to work. I used two flathead screw drivers to spread and press the snap ring down onto the bearing. Then I turn the whole thing upside down and, from about an inch off the ground, let it drop onto a 2x4.
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Old 01-05-2017, 09:07 AM   #25
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For the snap ring, you settle the case into place, then you spread the snap ring to just barely go over and catch open on the shaft. You'll notice the end of the shaft is bevelled. Once you have the snap ring actually onto the wider part of the bevel you can grab the transmission, turn it over and bounce it on the ground lightly and the weight and bump will cause the shaft to fall into place. You will hear the blessed snap of the snap ring clicking into it's home groove of the shaft.

Trying to do all that within 5 minutes of laying down the bead of "The Right Stuff" is not the most pleasant. Once done though, you do up the bolts and sigh a big sense of relief.
I'll give it a shot. By the time I was getting the trans back together it was almost 11pm (I get up at 5 for work), so I was tired and frustrated. I'll see what happens tonight. Thanks man.
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