Honda Civic / Del Sol (1992 - 2000) EG/EH/EJ/EK/EM1 Discussion

92-95 Hatches and Honda Challenge

 
Old 08-18-2004, 01:06 PM
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Default 92-95 Hatches and Honda Challenge

I am currently a mustang owner (no flames please) who has done a few HPDE events. I am in the market for a cheap track car so i decided on a 92-95 Hatch beacuse it's alot easier on brakes and tires than my heavy mustang. I have been to the Honda Challenge website and read over the rules. I have a few questions:

If i did a motor swap It would prob. be the B16 because of my budget. That would put me in H1. If i left the stock engine in it would put me in H5. It dosent look like there are any HP limitations. My thinking would be to leave the hatch engine alone. What are everyone's input on this? What hatch should I get? VX DX CX Si?
Keep in mind that I am looking to spend $3k or under on a civic.

Thanks
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Old 08-18-2004, 01:09 PM
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Default Re: 92-95 Hatches and Honda Challenge (2DTrack)

I'd throw this in the road-race/autocross section. They know more about the rules and good setups most likely.

I love EG's set up for road racing, and I wish you luck mang.
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Old 08-18-2004, 01:12 PM
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Default Re: 92-95 Hatches and Honda Challenge (2DTrack)

If you're gonna run strictly track, the CX or VX would best suit you. The CX has less insulation and sound-deadning(spelling?) and would be less work to gut. Si's are a little heavier with the sun roof, .. none of them should run you more than $3000 for a decent one.
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Old 08-18-2004, 01:21 PM
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Default

VX is the lightest so thats gonna be your best bet if youre gonna race. The CX isnt too much heavier. The VX also comes with a tach (i think) and the CX doesnt and youre gonna want one when you race so if you can get a VX you wont have to buy a new gauge cluster which will help you stay under 3k
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Old 08-18-2004, 01:41 PM
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Default Re: (h23eg)

just remember that if you end up not swapping the motor, the VX, CX, and DX all have almost zero horse power.
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Old 08-18-2004, 02:14 PM
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Default Re: 92-95 Hatches and Honda Challenge (2DTrack)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2DTrack &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If i did a motor swap It would prob. be the B16 because of my budget. That would put me in H1. If i left the stock engine in it would put me in H5. It dosent look like there are any HP limitations. My thinking would be to leave the hatch engine alone. What are everyone's input on this? What hatch should I get? VX DX CX Si?
Keep in mind that I am looking to spend $3k or under on a civic.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

You are probably gonna get a lot of "read the rulebook" over the R/R forum. Obviously use the SEARCH function and do a lot of browsing.

1. If you change the motor to anything other than what came in the car as it sold on the showroom floor then you get bumped to H1. Mods allowed to the OE engine are outlined in the rulebook.

2. CX/VX/DX are H5 cars. The DX is the best of the bunch with the highest OE hp rating and shorter gearing. A lot of the weight difference is negligable in a race car because so much useless stuff is taken out. The DX does run a larger fuel tank than CX/VX.

3. The SI is a H4 car. Definitely more potantial with a 125 hp rated vtec power plant, an even better geared tranny, and disk brakes all around. You will have to plug the sun roof hole with something other than the glass.

4. If you are serious about racing, look into SCCA categories that these models will fit into in stock form. Once a motor swap is done then you probably dont' have many options.

Good luck!
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Old 08-18-2004, 02:21 PM
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Default Re: 92-95 Hatches and Honda Challenge (RStoR)

Chris summed it up pretty well. There's not much I can add there.

I just bought a 92 DX hatch myself. I'm swapping in the D16Z6 (Si) engine and swapping over the brakes so I can run in H4 as an Si without a sunroof Si's were pretty hard to find in my area, and the ones I did find were going over $3,000. WELL over $3,000 in some cases. Anyway, I found a good looking and unabused DX and I'm just going to do the chassis swap.

However if you think about going down this road, look for a DX. With that base, you only have to swap over the brakes (which is a good thing) and the engine (it seems easier to find a lower milage engine OUTSIDE of a car anyways). Using a CX or VX as the base you also have to swap over the Si fuel tank and possibly some other parts...not too sure.

Whatever road you take, good luck to you!

EDIT: Oh yeah, you also might want to check out http://www.honda-acura.net. They have a forum that a lot of the East Coast Honda Challenge guys hang out at. Also, NASA has an official Honda Challenge forum as well.
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Old 08-18-2004, 02:53 PM
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Default Re: 92-95 Hatches and Honda Challenge (Duo)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Duo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I just bought a 92 DX hatch myself. I'm swapping in the D16Z6 (Si) engine and swapping over the brakes so I can run in H4 as an Si without a sunroof </TD></TR></TABLE>

I didn't even want to get into explaining the details associated with a tub swap, but I had looked into doing the same thing.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Duo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">However if you think about going down this road, look for a DX. </TD></TR></TABLE>

My choice too Should be able to get 115+ whp out of this power plant and install a SRR FD to pep up the tranny.
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Old 08-18-2004, 03:19 PM
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Default Re: 92-95 Hatches and Honda Challenge (RStoR)

Heh, if you hadn't explained all the other stuff, I would have left out the chassis swap details. That's too much typing!
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Old 08-18-2004, 03:33 PM
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Default Re: 92-95 Hatches and Honda Challenge (2DTrack)

id get a si if your gonna run in a class where your engine must be stock..aslo take a look at a 88-91 CRX Si as they are good track cars as well.
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Old 08-18-2004, 04:07 PM
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Default Re: 92-95 Hatches and Honda Challenge (Duo)

Get an Si model it offers the most bang for the buck and a roof skin swap can be had for less than 400 bux some places and items like the SRR 47 and 49 Final Drives can be used and it is a very competitive car and will be cheaper than buying a lesser model and swapping in the brakes and steering rack and sway bars ect.

guys in h4 are running mid to front pack since they can be built to such a high degree
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Old 08-18-2004, 04:09 PM
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Default Re: 92-95 Hatches and Honda Challenge (MulletManRockStar)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MulletManRockStar &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">id get a si if your gonna run in a class where your engine must be stock</TD></TR></TABLE>

Stock as defined by the rulebook still allows quite a bit of internal massaging. Just gotta know what you can and can't get away with. H4 class has a lot more well sorted high dollar IT cars in class with experienced drivers. Just know that you may have to spend more to have an "equal playing field" car in that class. Gotta look at all the facts before you make a blanket statement like that.

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Old 08-18-2004, 05:33 PM
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Default Re: 92-95 Hatches and Honda Challenge (2DTrack)

Holy Crap! I didnt expect this much of a response! Thanks to everyone who replied. It helped alot. I'm going to read through the rulebook again to pick up anything i missed. I'm going to try to find a decent Si if i can, though there arn't any avaliable in my area at this time. I also forgot to mention that I would like to keep this as my daily driver, get my racing liscence then start HC mabye next year.

Sorry i must have missed the Road Race section. I'll go there next time.

Thanks again! keep em comin.
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Old 08-18-2004, 05:40 PM
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Default Re: 92-95 Hatches and Honda Challenge (2DTrack)

si fer sure. intake headder and exhaust are a must, coilovers/gas shocks for the ride and handling, camber kits are good, that bar thingy.. cant member what its called... wheels and tires would be the most expencive.
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Old 08-18-2004, 08:02 PM
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Default Re: 92-95 Hatches and Honda Challenge (2DTrack)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 2DTrack &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I also forgot to mention that I would like to keep this as my daily driver, get my racing liscence then start HC mabye next year.</TD></TR></TABLE>

While Jack Harris (B18CXr) was able to drive his car (H1 hatch) to the track and race it the first season, I think you'll find it tough to maintain a true race car as a daily driver. To even get a license you have to have a fully prepped car for the NASA competition school. That means fully spec'd roll cage! Ever crawled into a caged car? Trust me, not something you want to do in nice clothes or better yet, have a date do. Think I read someone with racing experience say, " you better be able to walk away from a totaled race car with no regrets or remorse. " Hard to do that when you have to drive it to work on Monday!


PS: Found this. H-T User b16eric1228 Bronx, NY

for sale is an 92 dx 5 speed hatch clean and mint with cold working ac and stock motor. car has shave moldings with gsr seats, h&r springs, gsr arm rest and a ex cluster only thing missing is the hood and they broke the ignition. it was stolen but has a clean title and has 1 owner. like i said its mint and has no rust what so ever. car is in the way now b/c i have an 00 si. i also have pics of the car.

sn: b16eric1228
cell: 718 669 1456
name: Eric


Modified by RStoR at 12:19 AM 8/19/2004
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Old 08-18-2004, 11:23 PM
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Default Re: 92-95 Hatches and Honda Challenge (RStoR)

CX pride
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Old 08-19-2004, 12:24 AM
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Default Re: 92-95 Hatches and Honda Challenge (Chillin94hatch)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chillin94hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">CX pride </TD></TR></TABLE>

Hell yea
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Old 08-19-2004, 12:35 AM
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<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by h23eg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">VX is the lightest so thats gonna be your best bet if youre gonna race. The CX isnt too much heavier. The VX also comes with a tach (i think) and the CX doesnt and youre gonna want one when you race so if you can get a VX you wont have to buy a new gauge cluster which will help you stay under 3k</TD></TR></TABLE>

cx/vx are the same weight buddy

if i was you... i would opt for a cx or vx(guage cluster is a plus!) simply becuase they are light to begin with... good luck
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Old 08-19-2004, 03:29 AM
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Default Re: (DOHCtorTHRUST)

Originally Posted by DOHCtorTHRUST
if i was you... i would opt for a cx or vx(guage cluster is a plus!) simply becuase they are light to begin with...
Good link here about chassis weights https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=150315

Originally Posted by Link details
1992 Honda Civic: Weights of each vehicle STOCK

These cars were weighed <U>BONE STOCK</U>.

Bone Stock means:

No A/C - was NOT std. on any hatchback in 1992
No radio - again radios were NOT std. on ANY hatches in 1992
Only Si had 2 mirrors std. Add the weight of a mirror if you got 2 on your CX/VX/DX
ONLY the Si had powersteering - the DX auto did too, but I didn't list that one. I listed the manual, which had no p/s
Stock wheels. VX had lightweight 13'' alloys, CX/DX had 13'' steels, Si had heaviest 14'' steelies with wheel covers

CX hatchback: 2094lbs.
VX hatchback: 2094lbs.
DX hatchback: 2178lbs.
Si hatchback: 2326lbs.

So you see that the DX is 84lbs. more than the CX/VX. Here's why:

Bigger fuel tank - tank is steel, so bigger = heavier 11.9 gal vs 10 on cx/vx
Rear wiper/washer
More tar - DX has more tar than the CX/VX.
Side moldings - plastic, but still weighs more than the non-existent side moldings on the CX/VX
Rear cargo cover std. it weighs something, right?

Here is another link I found with info

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Honda Civic Specifications
1992-1995
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Engine Type : Aluminum Block and Head
Valvetrain: Sohc 4 valve/cyl.
Displacement
97 cu in./1590cc (EX, Si)
91.1 cu in/1493cc (DX, LX, VX, CX)
Bore x Stroke
2.95 x 3.54 in./75.0 x 90.0 mm (EX, Si)
2.95 x 3.33 in./75.0 x 84.5 mm (DX, LX, VX, CX)
<U>Compression Ratio </U>
9.2:1 (EX, Si, DX, LX)
9.3:1 (VX)
9.1:1 (CX)
<U>Horsepower (SAE) </U>
125 bhp @ 6600 rpm (EX, Si)
102 bhp @ 5900 rpm (DX, LX)
92 bhp @ 5500 rpm (VX)
70 bhp @ 5000 rpm (CX)
<U>Bhp/Liter </U>
78.1 (EX, Si)
68.0 (DX, LX)
61.3 (VX)
46.7 (CX)
<U>Torque </U>
106 lb-ft @ 5200 rpm (EX, Si)
98 lb-ft @ 5000 rpm (DX, LX)
97 lb-ft @ 4500 rpm (VX)
91 lb-ft @ 2000 rpm (CX)
<U>Gross Vehicle Weight Rating</U>
Hatchback
CX, VX: 3,055 lbs
DX M/T: 3,090 lbs
DX A/T: 3,210 lbs
Si: 3,270 lbs
Si w/ ABS: 3,305 lbs
<U>Brakes</U>
Front
10.3 in vented disc
Rear
9.4 in disc w/ABS (EX Sedan, Si Hatchback, EXa Coupe, Available on LX)
7.9 in drums (DX, LX)
7.1 in drums (VX, CX)
Assist type vacuum
<U>Wheels </U>
Pressed steel, 14 x 5J (EX, Si)
Pressed steel, 13 x 5 (DX, LX, CX)
Alloy, 13 x 4.5 (VX)
<U>Steering </U>
Rack & Pinion
Power Assist (EX, Si, LX, DX Sedan, DX Coupe w/ Auto transmission) Manual (DX Coupe w/Manual transmission)
Overall ratio
17.5:1 (Power)
19.0:1 (Manual)
Turns, lock to lock
3.58 (Power)
3.88 (Manual)
<U>Suspension</U>
Front
Upper A-arms, lower L-arms, coil springs, tube shocks
21.0 mm anti-roll bar (EX, Si, LX)
Rear
Trailing arms on upper & lower lateral links, compensating links, coil springs, tube shocks
13.0 mm anti-roll bar (EX Sedan)

CX Hatchback Key Features:
1.5 Liter, 70-hp, 8-Valve Engine, P165/70 R13 All-Season Tires, Rear Window Defroster with Timer, Hatch-Open Warning Light, Remote Fuel Filler Door Release, Remote Hatch Release, Passenger Assist Handle, Dual Manual Remote-Operated Mirrors

DX Hatchback Key Features:
1.5 Liter, 102-hp, 16-Valve Engine, Available 4-Speed Automatic Transmission with Power Steering, P175/70 R13 All-Season Tires, Adjustable Steering Column, Removable Cargo Area Cover, 2-Speed/Intermittent Windshield Wipers, Rear Window Wiper/Washer, Remote Fuel Filler Door Release, Remote Hatch Release, Dual Manual Remote-Operated Mirrors

VX Hatchback Key Features:
1.5 Liter, 92-hp, 16-Valve VTEC-E Engine, Lightweight 13" Alloy Wheels, P165/70 R13 All-Season Tires, Chin Spoiler, Tachometer, Dual Manual Remote-Operated Mirrors

Si Hatchback Key Features:
1.6 Liter, 125-hp, 16-Valve VTEC Engine, Power Steering, 4-Wheel Disc Brakes, 14" Wheels with Full Wheel Covers, P185/60 R14 All-Season Tires, Power Moonroof with Tilt Feature, AM/FM High-Power Stereo Cassette, Cruise Control, Rear Window Wiper/ Washer, Tachometer, Adjustable Steering Column, Removable Cargo Area Cover, 2-Speed/ Intermittent Windshield Wipers, Body-Colored Dual Power Mirrors

Taken from http://civic.vtec.net. </TD></TR></TABLE>


Obviously in "race trim" most of the weight differences would be negligable since all the mods other than the tank would be removed. At that ponit, you want the H5 car with the most potential (remember CX/VX/DX are the only H5 options) and with a higher compression ratio (VX IS NOT gonna accept performance mods due to the eVTEC), larger rear drums, higher base hp rating, and while unlisted, better transmission gearing, the DX is the class winner.


Tranny info added:
<U>Civic DX</U>
1st 3.25
2nd 1.762
3rd 1.172
4th 0.909
5th 0.702
FD 4.058

<U>Civic VX</U>
1st 3.25
2nd 1.161
3rd 1.066
4th 0.853
4th 0.75
FD 3.25

<U>Civic CX</U>
1st 3.25
2nd 1.762
3rd 1.172
4th 0.909
5th 0.702
FD 3.888



Modified by RStoR at 7:44 AM 8/19/2004
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Old 08-19-2004, 09:12 AM
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nice job

i got my 93 dx, 5 speed a week ago for a grand

seems very light, no backseat, no carpet, doesnt seem to weigh that much
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Old 08-19-2004, 09:24 AM
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Default Re: 92-95 Hatches and Honda Challenge (Duo)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Duo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Chris summed it up pretty well. There's not much I can add there.

I just bought a 92 DX hatch myself. I'm swapping in the D16Z6 (Si) engine and swapping over the brakes so I can run in H4 as an Si without a sunroof Si's were pretty hard to find in my area, and the ones I did find were going over $3,000. WELL over $3,000 in some cases. Anyway, I found a good looking and unabused DX and I'm just going to do the chassis swap.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

that kinda thing usually isn't legal and can be grounds for a protest. Usually swapping the bigger motor into the lighter chassis is a big rules no no. Doing that swap should put you in H1 technically.

s
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Old 08-19-2004, 09:40 AM
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Default Re: 92-95 Hatches and Honda Challenge (2DTrack)

This is a great thread for learning what to do to actually before starting to road race....thinking about racing myself...
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Old 08-19-2004, 09:50 AM
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Default Re: 92-95 Hatches and Honda Challenge (stevel)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stevel &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">that kinda thing usually isn't legal and can be grounds for a protest. Usually swapping the bigger motor into the lighter chassis is a big rules no no. Doing that swap should put you in H1 technically.
</TD></TR></TABLE>


Illegal....technically no. Frowned upon...sure, by some. It is really a loophole that can be legally exploited. Consider people who total a SI tub. They can't be expected to find another SI tub to be legal, especially since the only difference between the SI and CX/VX/DX is the sunroof, which has to be removed anyway for competition. With SI production numbers smaller than the other models, it is only fair to offer a feasible substitute for those that have misfortunes. Hence, the option to perform a <U>complete SI swap</U> on a non-SI tub. I discussed this same rule with Karl (ECHC Founder) well over a year ago when I had a VX and had an interest in racing H4.
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Old 08-19-2004, 09:53 AM
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Default Re: 92-95 Hatches and Honda Challenge (RStoR)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RStoR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


Illegal....technically no. Frowned upon...probably </TD></TR></TABLE>

maybe not illegal for NASA (not as familar with the organization) but in SCCA, absolutely illegal. This wouldn't fly at all.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RStoR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

With SI production numbers smaller than the other models, it is only fair to offer a feasible substitute for those that have misfortunes.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't see that being a good argument. EX coupe chassis are certainly feasible. There's a ton out there and everything swaps over.

Reading over the rules I guess it would be allowed. That's pretty cool.


s




Modified by stevel at 2:19 PM 8/19/2004
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Old 08-19-2004, 09:55 AM
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Default Re: 92-95 Hatches and Honda Challenge (stevel)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stevel &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">maybe not illegal for NASA (not as familar with the organization) but in SCCA, absolutely illegal. This wouldn't fly at all.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Fully agree! But then again that is why "read the rulebook" is always the best approach right.


Edit - Another argument would be re-skinning the SI to remove the sunroof. This is a completely legal way to "fill the hole" since you are using an OE skin. If you can replace the roof skin, then why not just use a replacement tub with the skin already in plac?

Good friendly debate going.


Modified by RStoR at 2:23 PM 8/19/2004
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fatoldman7
Road Racing / Autocross & Time Attack
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09-10-2003 01:23 PM


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