Markcous

WARNING, THIS POST IS MEANT FOR THE EXPERT HONDA/ENGINE TROUBLESHOOTER, IT IS LONGER THAN MOST POSTS SO SIT DOWN WITH A CUP OF NICE HOT CHOCOLATE AND ENJOY AT YOUR OWN PERIL.

So after searching through the forums, Google, and not finding much. Before I decide to scrap this B16A, I figured I'd pick the brains of the people at Honda Tech.

The story begins with a previously turboed B16A that had coolant in the oil. I had a friend who just bought a 98 civic coupe with a swapped in B16A that was lowered with some nicely (NAWT) cut stock springs, anyhoo. The kid could not pass emissions since the person the kid bought the car from had left him with a virgin P05 OBD1 computer and other various emissions related reasons. (EVAP can missing etc etc) So I offered to make his car pass emissions by swapping in a D16, but in return I would get the B16A. He agreed.

The B16A ran without any problems, no oil pressure problems, no coolant/overheating problems. IT RAN AS DESIGNED.

However, when taking the engine out of his car, I noticed the oil smelt odd and had a green tint to it. Coughcoughblownheadgasketcoughcough. So then I made the decision to start fresh by way of a complete rebuild.

The head was hot tanked, resurfaced as needed, and the valves were reseated (valve job with new seals) the block was pressure washed, bored .02 over and machine honed.

I should also mention that when we tore the engine down we found that piston numero 3 had cracked ring lands, so new 81.02 mm pistons were slapped on the stock rods to accommodate the new bore.

I then had the machine shop order me a rebuild kit, which included standard clevite bearings for a B16A and everything else I would need. This means the color coded bearing system was thrown out but they assured me the engine would run fine, so I yielded there.

New water pump, new oil pump, timing belt, and the crank was polished.

With everything brand new minus the valves and guides, I reassembled the motor using lubriplate on all the bearings, used anarobic gasket maker on the oil pump, etc etc.

When put together, we primed the system using the starter motor on 5-30 semi synthetic oil. After being ready to start the engine, we hooked up the injectors and dizzy.

The engine wouldn't start because the cylinders had anywhere from 0-90 psi of compression, long story short, we called the machine shop that worked on the engine, and they set the valve lash HAS to be set. Doy.

Well, we had no feeler gauges that would fit in the B16A's crowded head. So we guessed, we knew it had to be between .006-7" on the intake and .007-8" on the exhaust. Nevertheless we did it by feel. After that was set, the engine started right up and ran exactly how I imagined it would. And I thought this was to be the start of a great Man to Honda relationship. I was DEAD wrong.

About 140 miles later, the oil light started turning on at idle, at about 150 miles, ROD KNOCK. Son of bitch! What went wrong?

We pulled the oil pan off and sure enough, the rod bearings looked like they had roughly 5,000,000,000 miles on them. The machine shop confirmed they had been ran without oil. So, we turned to the oil pump, upon inspection, the gears and the cover that rest on them were scratched to ****.

I started kicking myself thinking it was the clearance on the rod bearings, which we didn't plastigauge. Maybe there was too much play that caused the bearings to sent chunks into the oil pump? So I busted out the micrometer, got the readings off each rod bearing journal on the crank, using various online resources, I found the correct color coded rod bearings that applied to my specific situation, all but three rod journals needed a thicker bearing then what Honda put in there, stock.

So, being short on money and time (who isn't?) we decided to run the old oil pump for the time being. With everything back together and torqued properly (still no plastigage on the rod bearings, and reusing the rebuild set's crank bearings which still looked usable) I started priming the system using the starter again. After about 30 seconds of cranking with the oil light on i started getting discouraged (RED FLAG THAT I IGNORED). So I turned the battery charger up to "start" and the engine cranked a little faster. Finally, the light went off. Great success..... NAWT.

Another 200 miles later, would you believe it? Every time I would start the engine, the oil light would take about 5 seconds of running to turn off, and until it did, there was an unpleasant rod knock sound. Other than that, the car ran ok.

Eventually I couldn't take it anymore. "I'm pull the stupid thing out again."

After pulling the engine, we took off the oil pan, and sprayed clean solvent in the crankcase through a reusable aerosol can and let it drain using gravity. I had the crank pulled and took it to the machine shop to get polished once more, the main bearings and rod bearings were already done.

The machine shop agreed to replace the pump, rod, and main bearings under warranty.

With only the oil pan off, we reinstalled the new parts, thinking, this time it will work for sure.

Another 200 miles later, we have the same symptoms, rod knock, and an oil pump with circular scratches in it. I should mention that all three times I used brand new oil with a brand new oil filter. I was also unable to run an air filter for all 600 of these miles, which I know cannot cause this because I ran a turboed d16 without an air filter for over a year before I sold it.

Now I'm stumped. I have something destroying my oil pumps, and then my bearings. I've spent way more than I would have if I had just imported a B16 and I'm now without a shop or tools to work on the car with.

I'm contemplating just taking the car to a shop and having them go at it, or just scrapping the engine altogether.

Does ANYONE have an intelligent suggestion that does not include the fact that this engine had no air filter or that I did not plastigauge the bearings?

Thank you for reading.

EDIT * The B16A was managed by an ECTUNE P28 with a LC1 wideband that I had set to auto tune the AFR's on stock B16A maps.

Would incorrectly set valve lash cause this even though the engine had plenty of power? It should also be noted that the oil pan was beaten up due to being on a lowered car, on the third rebuild, we decided to pound back out the oil pan to its stock form, we did this because we saw paint missing in the form of a circular scratch right where the pickup tube went, or it other words, it was resting on the bottom of the pan till we pounded it back out, but this did not fix the issue.

fg2hondaem1

hey bro dam sorry to hear or rather read your story but here is my responce i had a buddy who built a crvtec and when he started it the first time the same thing happend to him he had to replace the bearings and have the crank polished but anyway he siad the reason this happend was because before installing the oil pump you have to disassemble it and lubricate the gears with a certian grease or honda brand lubricant so its basicly primed otherwise there is no seal to create the suction needed to pulll the oil through the galleys maybe this is whats happening with you also you should have an oil pressure gauge so if you see the pressure not at the proper amount you can cut the engine sooner i think thats why you were seeing the oil light on for so long it couldnt suck it through and by the time it finally did it had already started causing the damage

Markcous

Yeah thats about what the machine shop told me too, so they gave me some 60 weight penzoil to prime it with and i didnt disassemble it but I'm pretty damn sure it was primed lol, poured a quarter of the bottle in there and turned the gears by hand, good suggestion though, and thanks for reading.

Markcous

The only thing I can think of is that having the valve lash set improperly is doing two things, one, ruining my head and throwing metal shavings into my oil which then goes unfiltered through my pump - ruining my pump, then ruining my bearings. if anyone has any more suggestions id be more than happy to hear it, thanks all

90Rexx

remove the oil pump, check the egars inside the pump to see if they are in spec, also check the inner housing of the oil pump for gear to housing contact.... a severely overtorqued crankshaft pulley may cause an oil pump gear to contact the housing which it stays if the housing or gear becomes bent.

but my honest reccomendation is replace the oil pump again, and eliminate as many variables as possible, replace bearings with correct bearings, inspect all moving components ect.

blaze the chemi

I seriously doubt having wrong valve lash would cause your main issue. The valve lash would just cause undue stress on your cams and valve train. The basic craftsman feeler gauges at Sears or basically any auto parts store will fit in the head to get your valve lash correct.

What does the machine shop have for the clearances since they built your engine? That would be the first thing to ask. If they don't know, then you should find another shop now. Yes you should have double checked with plastigauge, but that is in the past.

How are the thrust bearings? Do you have the stock crank pulley on?

Although you are putting this in a civic, this thread would do you justice in the tech/misc area and/or all-motor sections.

rick_rabies

try another crank pully. doesnt seem as though its a vibration sound problem.
somthing is way off balance. naturally we say the crank but you had that fixed..or did they?

vtechjunkie

iTrader: (2)

I hope this never happens to me!

90Rexx

Seems as though they key to this situation is the damaged oil pumps, balance is a good thing to look into could have damaged the pump.

CivicSpoon

You don't just buy a kit of bearings and put them in, you need to use plastigauge and figure out the clearances for your engine. At the very least, getting the proper bearings will eliminate that being the main issue, if the problem persists in the future. Also make sure they put in the thrust washers in the correct way. If you're using any kind of lightweight aftermarket crank pulley, ditch it, get a stock one, and get the whole rotation assembly balanced.

Markcous

Thanks for all the suggestions everybody, I guess I should be clear that this was my first rebuild and I am responsible for the engine assembly... which could be the problem in the first place.

As far as the thrust bearings, they were inserted with vertically grooved sides facing away from the main bearing towards the crankshaft counterweights, as i was told to do so. thats the way they were installed both times. (2 different sets) I noticed the first pair i had, the bearing closest to the distributor, where it contacts the crank, was thrashed moreso than the other bearing which was closer to the oil pump. the crank pulley is in fact stock, but it should be noted that it was lightly glass beaded and painted since 17 year old metal doesnt look too great. the crank was never balanced, but it was polished, twice now. the gear faces inside on the last two oil pumps were scraped in a circular motion, and so was the gear housing, looks like they may have made contact, or something got between them and scraped the **** out of both of them.

again, i greatly appreciate all of your suggestions, your 30 seconds on the keyboard could save my pride and over 2000 dollars to have someone else do it. (:


i also would never wish this on anyone who is infected with the Honda Bug, it really really discourages you, lemme tell ya.

g230sport

have you checked your thrush?

i could see that and something else pushing the crank towards the crank pulley, thus the thrust washer nearest the oil pump was not beaten up, yet the one towards the trans is beat according to you.

i would check the thrust, and check the clutch, flywheel, and trans for excessive play and justcheck them all over...

hope thats a decent idea.

Markcous

Not a bad idea, something i definitely overlooked in my excitement to get me some fire breathin DOHC VTEC after being stuck with d15's and d16's for 3 years.

The pressure plate and flywheel (stage 3 i believe) were actually burnt to ****, but my buddy and i were able to pop the pressure plate mounting pins out of the flywheel and stick it on a brake lathe to get most of the hard diamond like burn spots out, but werent more than 75% successful. as for the pressure plate which was burnt, the only thing we could do to that was lightly glass bead it to rough up the surface (keeping in mind it needed to be balanced when we were done) the flywheel weighs 8 pounds at this point, and the clutch worked amazing with a few slight vibrations that were noticeable on the friction point of the pedal. other than that, those are some of the details i left out.

probably just going to end up handing the project over to a shop if its THAT picky about balance.

sanegb16

iTrader: (2)

you should run straight 30w nondetergent regular motor oil and hold it at about 2000-2500rpms for about 15 min when you first start it just to flush everything the change the oil
also im not sure if b16s have oil squirters but you may want to see if metal shavings may have gotten caught and stopped oil circulation
or maybe just a slightly undersized/oversized bearing causing metal shaveing
are you running a generic cam btw
some non oem cams can cause metal shavings
get a magentic drain plug too
just a little more reassurance

blaze the chemi

I have done only one engine build too. That was about 40K miles ago, the first 17K miles boosted, and broken in on the dyno. The biggest difference between your build and mine that I can see right now is that I only messed with the rod bearings because I slapped in crower rods and SRP pistons. I did PLASTIGAUGE the clearances and they all checked out between 0.0015 and about 0.0017". I also have only used dino juice in my car. You shouldn't use synthetic in your break-in period.

I never messed with the crank, pulley, crank bearings or thrust bearings. I hope you find the problem(s) with your engine soon. Please buy some $4 plastigauge next time.

1992Si

Where do you live, may be someone can recommend a better shop.

Our shop assemble's the short block for about $500.00 They order the bearings and do all the work.

We don't have the time or paticence to mess with it.

Well worth the money. If you want to learn how, ask your shop if they will let you watch and teach you how to do it. You may even offer them a few bucks to let you learn.

I did my first engine back in 1974. Had the machine work done and they supplied the crank and bearings. I assembled the short block, no plasticgage. I drove the car over 200,000 miles no problems. It's easy if everything is correct.

You may have a miss matched crank/block I think there have been guy's in the tech forum that have talked about that.

You may want to call someone like Tony1 or Joe Simpson (Turbo-charged) in the drag racing forum. These guy's know there stuff.

Good Luck

slowturbocx

Open the oil pump cover and measure clearances.
Check the clearances on the main bearing closest to the pump (this has the greatest effect on pressure) and clearances on the furthest rod bearing (this will show the greatest wear).
Shitty clearances in the engine's oil supply system can cause low oil pressure.
i know it's probably a dumb question, but you cleaned out the oil pickup everytime, right?

Markcous

yeahhhhhhh it was cleaned. its gotta be an oil galley or some ****. no one really knows and probably never will till its completely taken apart. SO OF COURSE its back to the ****in D16Z6. story of my life. I just want a fast sleeper civic, is that too much to ask for?

D16SohcVtec

Having the valve lash out of spec isn't going to destroy the bearings, they'll just be loud and add stress to the head.

Like someone has stated, when you install new bearings make sure you at least plasti-gage them and make sure that they are within specs according to a service manual. Are only the rod bearings the ones that are getting toasted or are the main bearings also? Make sure that on the rods you didn't mismatch the rod caps. I'm not too sure if this would make a difference, but I know that for the main bearings you must use the same main caps that were on the block. Also according to some engine builders, the rods are supposed to be installed a certain direction. I believe the oil hole is supposed to be pointing towards the back of the block when being assembled. I hope you figure out your problem. Good luck.

97ej6dx

I Think every time you rebuilt your motor you should have the block and head boiled.. my bearings went out to from the last time i rebuilt mine> what happens is you get little peices of aluminum or whatever type of metal decides to flake off during damage. then that can clogg the holes of the oil and block the flow also it can jam in the oil pump and cause for a not fun time> and after 3 times of each thing i have a feeling there is alot of grit in there waiting to get out. The oil Filter dosent take Every thing out you need a fresh clean engine and head then you shoulnt have any more problems