Blacksnowem1

Hey guys I have a 2000 civic SiR Canadian model. with the b16a2. I am in the process of gathering all of the necessary parts to build the engine to handle about 450 - 500 whp. I don't wanna break the bank but I also have no problem paying for quality parts as I want this build done right. I need help from the more experienced people on here to tell me what parts I will need to make this happen. all I'm looking for is internals. fully built bottom end and fully built head. as I have a fab shop that will be building the turbo kit and finishing the car for me. oh I should also mention this is going to be a street/track car build. and any info on what tranny I should get or just stick with the stock one. thanks .

Chance EG

Everyone here will tell you to use a B18B/LS engine as a basis for your build as opposed to a B16. Much more torque, power, and responsiveness on the lower end of the RPM band.

My advice would be to get an LS engine and build it on the side, as well as either an LS or GSR transmission (with an LSD). This also has the added benefit of letting you drive around your car in it's current state until you're ready for the engine/turbo swap.

For that power level you'll definitely need sleeves, and obviously forged rods/pistons. Supertech or Ferrea valvetrain would also be a very worthwhile upgrade. Just know that any turbo car isn't going to have the same amount of reliability as an NA one, no matter how well it's built (if you intend to street/track the car).

Also consider the size of tire that you'll be running, and the length/design of the tracks you intend to race on. Is 450->500whp really needed in a car that weighs 2400lb? Just food for thought. It may make a lot more sense to just shoot for ~300->350whp, stock sleeves would still be fine at that level and the car would have an easier time putting the power to the ground.

TomCat39

Actually there was quite a discussion about this in the Forced Induction section.

A high HP NA car runs at top forces all the time, where a Turbo car does not. The NA car requires a much higher upkeep than the Turbo car to maintain top level performance on a car not dedicated strictly to the track.

Simply put, the turbo engine isn't running at full output all the time on a street/strip build.

The NA car is running at maximum just idling.

If it's built right, the turbo car will have longevity and reliability over the NA car.

Chance EG

So much misinformation there I don't even know where to start man....

You're leaving out ALL of the important variables. Unless you're talking about full on DRAG N/A engines pushing 14.5+ CR and stroked crankshafts, an N/A engine will always be more reliable. Period.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

So, try and figure out a point to start... I wanna see this one..







Don't worry, I'll wait. :-)

Chance EG

I realize it's been 3 days and OP only made that single post, and TomCat didn't respond either, but I'm bored at work so:

In my opinion, through all my reading of other people's experiences, from talking to Evan's Tuning, from owning a turbo S2000, etc, I have come to firmly believe that:

Aftermarket turbocharged cars are inherently, and inevitably more unreliable and require more maintenance/upkeep than naturally aspirated vehicles (with the exception being extreme NA builds with asinine compression and bore/stroke) because of the following:

• Lots of added heat and vibration from the turbocharger
• The turbocharger requires coolant flow from the engine (makes coolant somewhat hotter/harder to keep at temperature, and also slightly drops oil pressure if oil fed)
• The turbocharger itself has components that need to be maintained (seals/bearings)
• Other components that would otherwise not be there in an NA setup (waste gate, BoV, boost controller, extra lines/hoses, sleeves) may fail
• Despite not constantly driving in boost, when you do enter the powerband it is a much more violent ramp than a linear NA (or even supercharged) power line. Adds stress to both drivetrain components and engine internals

Can you daily a turbo Honda? Absolutely. Can you track a turbo Honda? It's not easy, but if you get your cooling down correctly then yes. Don't forget when racing now your intercooler is now blocking some airflow from hitting the radiator.

My biggest point is that a turbo system adds a LOT of variables that otherwise would not be there. Every single thing that's added in a turbo system has the potential for failure either by defect of the part, error of installation, or error of tuning/upkeep. If you invest in a quality kit like Full Race/Go Autoworks this lowers the chance for failure, but all that added heat and power still adds stress to the engine.

Basically, I just don't think anyone should turbo their Honda with the intent of daily driving it unless they're also mechanically knowledgeable/inclined and don't mind investing at least $6K+ on a proper build, and possibly having to do at least minor wrenching on their car on a semi-regular basis. You hear about plenty of turbo cars being driven for 40/60/80K miles, but even those have "the little things" breaking down on them more frequently than they would in stock or bolt-on/NA form.

Anyway, that's what I believe. I've had strong evidence/experience to lead me there. If it wasn't for all that, I'd probably just do a turbo B18 swap on my own hatch rather than the 4PistonRacing K swap I'm planning on next year.

TomCat39

This is the crunch right there.

You cannot compare apples to oranges.


Comparing a turbo car (350+hp) 1.6L to a stock or bolt-on (essentially stock) 100 HP 1.6L NA car. Not even remotely close to the same thing.

Now compare apples to apples... 1.8L 450HP NA car (obviously fully built high CR ratio car that has to run on E85 most likely) to a 1.8L Turbo car that is also putting out 450 HP.

Which is harder on engine components more often in a daily driver?

My one question of thought on the NA car is that massive cam to get the 450HP (if that's even possible on a 1.8L). That power is typically only at the top end.... Is the force and pressure really all that present in the low and mid range?

I know E85 chews up and spits out motors without religious upkeep.

So yeah, a properly built turbo, the key here is quality built, will have an easier upkeep to the SAME displacement and power NA motor. Are there more things to upkeep, sure. Is it any more difficult, no. The E85 motor has to be ripped down and virtually rebuilt every 25,000 miles or so, not true of the turbo on pump gas.

Chance EG

Correct, I'm not making my post with the intention of saying that the NA build will (or should) have the same power output as a turbo car.

Even beyond just "bolt ons" though, you can still run a relatively aggressive cam, 12.5ish CR on a K24 engine and make 290+WHP that will last for years with only casual maintenance on 91/93 octane. If you want to stay B series then you'd probably be around 250WHP or something on a B20. I didn't mean to limit an NA build by just saying "bolt ons", I just mostly meant any NA engine that doesn't have a stroker kit slapped into it.

I guess my point is you don't really NEED that much HP in these cars unless you're just dead set on highway roll racing or drag. Traction will always be an issue unless you're on slicks, and the powerband isn't as linear or enjoyable in city driving.

If you actually need/want 450WHP+, then yeah I totally agree on either doing a SC or turbo. I realize that OP stated he wanted 450-500, which is why I asked him if he really thinks that much is necessary, but he's been out of this discussion since he created the topic lol.

2LEM1

iTrader: (1)

A 2.4 liter B series will make the same power as a 2.4 liter K series which makes the same power as a 2.4 liter H series.

A properly built engine is just that... properly built.

The main advantage of a K series is that the head flows better stock, and it's a larger motor, so you see greater gains by just doing 'bolt ons'... once you start porting heads and raising compression, it's the same ****.