redraif

I did some searching and there seems to be no exact situation that matched ours so I wanted to get you alls Opinion.

So we have a 1993 Honda DelSol Si VTECH. It has 153,597 miles. We failed the emissions test this weekend. We failed the NOX with nearly double the allowed numbers…. YIPES!

***A bit of background for a maintenance reference… It might get long, but I would rather give you too much then not enough!

We bought the car about 2 years ago. A kid was building it as a spirited driver. It has fresh paint, new lights, some simple gfx, lowered, has an intake, headers, cat delete with bolt in straight pipe and an aftermarket muffler. He had a shop do all the maintenances… plugs, wires, cap, rotor, O2, timing belt, water pump, gaskets… from what I remember basically a heavy tune up / light rebuild. Knowing we had emission in GA, we promptly bought a bolt in replacement cat.

Once home, we had to deal with some paperwork due to buying out of state that delayed us getting it emission tested. Over those few months, we had an intermittent check engine light. It only came on when the car hit one particular large bump at speed. One minute down the road and it promptly went back off. No code was present when the car was tested. No idea, but without a saved code we were stuck.

We went for emission and it failed. A Honda friend recommended to change the O2 based on what section it failed. It was a new O2 though. The Kid had his mechanic install the new one maybe a month before we bought it. Well I aired on the side of caution and got a new one. I went to change it. Because of the headers, the o2 was further downstream, AKA, stock wires did not reach. Well upon close inspection, it was a very sloppy job with butt connectors and twisted wires… Now it made sense the bump made the wires jerk and set code. Well that was not the only issue. He swapped 2 of the wires. It was reading backwards. Since I did not know if his wiring had fried the o2 I went with the new one and rewired everything correctly. (Soldered, dielectric grease and shrink tube on every connection) We crossed our finger and retested. The car passed.

So life was good. It was so late in the year when the car passed that we were exempt from the emission last year. So fast forward to this year… about 1 month ago the Del decided to develop some quirks over a week. It began to sputter when my wife would get on the gas hard when turning left. Then that grew to a sputtering and loss of power going uphill. Then a general sputter when the car was asked to perform. No check engine light. Starting simple, I suspected bad fuel. I started with Lucas fuel treatment and premium fuel. Still problematic, I researched. We were directed to plugs, wires, cap & rotor. But they were not that old. But not knowing if the Kid picked out something because it was supposed performance… blah blah… I changed them anyway. The plugs looked horrid. The wires seemed ok and they were 8mm, so I left them. Tried to start the car and it did not want to start. We got it going, but I figured maybe a wire was not on tight I started checking them. All was well at the plugs. The dist cap was some clear cheapy, and I could see the spark through it. Something seemed off though. I touched one of the wires at the cap to see if it was tight. I could now feel current leaching at the Dist cap. Maybe the cap was cracked? So off to the store. Upon removing the cap and rotor, there was oil all over the bottom side of the cap. Had the rubber seal failed? All the connectors were corroded and nasty. The rotor button was seized on there. I got it apart, cleaned up and changed. The car fired up and ran better. There was no more leaching current. So out for a drive and then the dreaded sputter… So on to the wires. Now the car was running with no sputter, finally.

Then before I get it home from its test run, it throws a code. Good grief… So this points to the Fuel Filter or pump. The fuel filter was on there like Hercules installed it. My guess, it was never changed. Line wrenches proved difficult to locate and cost more then the shop would charge, so I paid the shop to do it. Code was gone and the car ran great! And this was a month ago…

***

With all that behind us, I figured we were good to go for the Emissions this year. But as I stated earlier… nope! No check engine light at the time of the test. We ran it with premium fuel as recommended by the emission station. I drove it for at least 15 minutes in city conditions prior to the test. Temp outside was moderately cool with light rain fall.

Here is the test result.
Test Date/Time: 04/19/2014 @ 16:09
Test Type: Initial
Test Fee: $25.00

VEHICLE INFORMATION
Year: 1993
Make: HONDA
Model: CIVIC DEL SOL
Cylinders: 4
Eng: 1 .6 L
Trans: MANUAL
Odometer: 153597
Body: SEDAN Stds:

TEST RESULTS
25/25 Test

HC ppm : Reading: 145 Allowed: 147 Result: Pass
CO % : Reading: 0.48 Allowed: 0.82 Result: Pass
NO,<ppm : Reading: 3695 Allowed: 1072 Result: Fail
RPM: Reading: 2097 Allowed: 3000 Result: max
CO+C02 %: Reading: 13.7 Allowed: 6.0 Result: min

50/15 Test

HC ppm: Reading: 73 Allowed: 152 Result: Pass
CO % : Reading: 0.39 Allowed: 0.85 Result: Pass
NO,<ppm: Reading: 3025 Allowed: 1186 Result: Fail
RPM : Reading: 1895 Allowed:3000 Result: max
CO+C02 %: Reading:14.3 Allowed: 6.0 Result: min

Catalytic Converter Present
Fuel Cap 1 Test = Pass


The emission guy said check 3 things: timing could be off, EGR and catalytic convertor.

Now which suspect to attack first to clean this up?
1) So I will check the timing, but I doubt that is the issue as the car runs fine and no one has touched the timing. It passed the first time just as it sits.

2) EGR… would the car not be coding if there was enough blockage to double the NOX numbers? I will run some SeaFoam through the intake and let it work on any carbon build ups.

3) I'm leaning towards the catalytic convertor.
A) because the plugs and cap were so fouled up that that had to be causing nasty stuff to be flowing through the system... (lord knows for how long)
B) and in the threads I researched regarding the sputtering… They all said after this condition, there was a chance the cat could go bad.
C) Emissions guy said the aftermarket cats seem to only last about 2 years on daily drivers that drive a decent # of miles. (ours fits that bill… right about 2 years on the cat @ 50 miles/day, 5 days /week)
D) After my firebird had an aftermarket exhaust, intake and a few other goodies… it really affected the life of my cat. Mostly due to the tune not being optimized for the bolt-ons and the lack of the good gas older cars need to run right. (ethanol-free) So there is a good chance the same factors will be affecting the Del and causing premature cat failure. I ended up with a bolt in straight pipe for the bird. Only put the cat on once a year at test time!

So what do you guys think?

redraif

Been a busy week so i have not been able to much more then research the car's history. Basically putting the story together from the original listing and reciepts we got with the car.*
I also worked out some mileage figures.

I replaced the O2 in September 2012 w a Denso. That was 27,748 miles ago. The cat was replaced 31,597 miles ago. Its a direct bolt in. If I can find the receipt I will see if there is a warranty.*

Looked at our old emissions test. It seems when we failed last time, with the mis-wired O2. ... the car had high nox as well. The hc numbers were high as well.*

Emissions 6/30/12 FAILED OD: 122,406 (brand new cat)
25/25
HCppm : 192 (147) F
CO % : .74 (.82) P
NOX: 1676 (1072) F
CO+C02 %: 13 (6) Min*

50/15
HCppm : 62 (152) P
CO % : .2 (.85) P
NOX: 3643 (1186) F
CO+C02 %: 13 (6) Min*

09/2012 O2 replacement & rewire (denso 234-4099)
OD: 125,8xx

Emissions :9/22/12 passed OD: 125,849 (new o2, same new cat)
25/25(allowed)
HCppm : 23 (147) P
CO % : .15 (.82) P
NOX: 289 (1072) P
CO+C02 %: 14.3 (6) Min*

50/15
HCppm : 24 (152) P
CO % : .23 (.82) P
NOX: 337 (1186) p
CO+C02 %: 14.3 (6) Min*

Compared to the recent test...*

Emissions 4/19/14 fail: OD: 153,597
25/25 Test*
HC ppm : 145 (147) Pass*
CO % : 0.48 (0.82) Pass
NO,<ppm : 3695 (1072) Fail*
CO+C02 %: 13.7 (6.0) min*

50/15 Test*
HC ppm: 73 (152) Pass*
CO % : 0.39 (0.85) Pass*
NO,<ppm: 3025 (1186) Fail*
CO+C02 %: 14.3 (6.0) min*

the hcc (25/25) test is very close to being out. Could the o2 be bad again? Could the issue with the messed up dist cap, rotor, plugs and wires have thrown things off so far as to fry the o2? The car did throw a code now. Tonight we will find out which one. I'm hopeful that will shed some light on the subject.

redraif

Drum roll please......

And....*

I'm not sure.... lol

I got the code 43.... but then it flashed fast 8 times more? What is code 8?

Help!
I recorded it and posted it on YouTube
http://youtu.be/aRnvRcGfsYg

Code 43 is what we had right after I changed the plugs, wires, dust cap and rotor. The fuel filter change cleared it up. But I remember many folks listed the O2 is a prime candidate when this code shows itself

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

Post a picture of the sheet.

redraif

Current 2014 emissions


The emissions from 2012. Fail on top and pass on bottom

redraif

Code 43 is gone! A littld clean up took care of it. Maybe some oil from the leak.

So only code 8. Which I've been told is the tdc sensor... so I tested the distributor wiring. Using this diagram...


I used an ohm meter and tested across the leads. I had to use the 200k scale. I crossed the leads and got 0. The first terminals 2 & 6 read .4... the terminals 4 & 8 read .4.... the tdc leads, terminals 3 & 7, gave no reading. Here is the video on youtube:

TDC Test 93 DelSol Si V-Tec: http://youtu.be/AlK7JzEkecg

Please make sure I tested it right. Does this confirm my tdc sensor is defective and I need a new distributor?

We checked with honda and a new lower is $450.00. I want honda but we can't afford it. Who is the next best? Can swap as much from my old dist less the bad sensor to keep the Honda ignition parts? Where is the tdc sensor in the distributor, so I know what to swap or not.

Thanks

Nave43

https://honda-tech.com/forums/honda-civic-del-sol-1992-2000-1/ls-vtec-not-passing-washington-state-emmissions-please-help-3206424/

This very well may help.

belairbrian

The code 8 TDC sensor is not causing emission failure.

From the factory manual

The CRANK sensor determines timing for fuel injection and ignition of each cylinder and also detects engine RPM. The TDC sensor determines ignition timing at start-up (cranking) and when crank angle is abnormal. The CYL sensor detects the position of No.1 cylinder for sequential fuel injection to each cylinder.

But if you still have oil in the distributor you need to fix that.

I bought a CRV with a TDC code. A mechanic had told the owner it needed a $500 dist and an ECU for $1000. So they decided to sell. I bought it and got the dist off Ebay. I know a lot of folks here hate Ebay distributors, but It worked fine for years and cost under $100.

Last thought, it's not a del sol unique part so the salvage yard is a good alternative.

JDMequalslife

Unless i miss read something, but you said the cat was deleted, thats why youre failing smog

redraif

The owner deleted it, but I bought one and replaced it. Car does have a cat now. Just not sure if it being bad caused the failure. Or if the code 8 was the culprit

redraif

Well code 8 was not the culprit....
Ok sorry for the delay, too much chaos of late. Poor car has just had to sit... wanted to update though.

So it took a bit, but I got a used oem distributor that tested good on its internal sensors. The junkyard had cleaned it up prior to handing it to me! Ugh! So I could not tell if & where there were any oil leaks. Plus the dang cap on it had no seal and I dont know what he sprayed it with, but I'm 99% sure what he used seeped in under the cap. It had just a touch of an oily substance inside, but nothing that looked like oil from an internal seal leak. I lookdd down in the dizzy and it seemed dry past the top layer of electronics. Since it was the only one from a "running" car, I took it.

Anyway.... cleaned it up and installed it with a new oem o-ring and it seems to be leak free so far.

The timing on the car was off. The 3 notch lines were all forward of the reference indicator. Fwd meaning b/w the nose and indicator. I looked from straight up above. Mine had no color on them anymore. I assume the car was set @ about 10°, if I understand which way is advanced versus retarded on the timing notches. So I set the car to 16°. I have no sticker under the hood, so in researching, I believe 16 is right for factory. Yes I jumpered the wires before I checked and set timing. the car felt so much better. I cleared all codes an none returned.

I added new premium fuel and drove about 15 min. Here is the test....


Seems everything got worse.... ugh! I guess cause the previous owner had retarded the timing?

So now I know its dead on 16°. The dizzy is good. The cat id dead. I will replace. Should I replace the o2? Its not throwing a code. Can it still be bad?

grumblemarc

iTrader: (4)

The cat is dead but you replaced the cat? Confused. Why would you attempt an emissions test with something wrong with the catalytic converter?

EpHatchy

Marc hit the nail on the head bad cat. I would also retard the timing to 14 degrees just for the test to bring the nox down even lower as a just in case measure.after smog bump it back up.