Nassimab

Hello,

I have a Honda Civic 2000. The problem I have has been there ever since I bought the Honda like 3 years ago.

So here is the deal:
sometimes and I say sometimes, when I drive my car for some time, turn it off for some period of time and then try to start it again, it just wouldn't start. It would crank but wouldn't start. More so, sometimes after trying for 10 min or so it starts, and sometimes it just refuses to. This problem only happens if the car has been recently driven or is still warm.

I took it to a mechanic, and the scan machine found nothing.
Here is what I tried:
1) I know the fuel pump is turning on because I can hear humming and I can smell gas in the cylinders after a while. I even took out the fuel relay and checked the soldering (as per suggestions that the solder could be affected by heat)
2) when the problem happened, I took out the spark plug and checked for spark and there was a spark.
3) also one time when the car wouldn't start, I thought it would be the battery not supplying enough amperage or something, so I connected my battery to another car's battery and tried "jump starting" and it also didn't start.

What I heard from the forum is that:
1) It could be the temperature sensor misfunctioning causing more fuel to be injected than required. (but why would the car sometimes start after a while if the sensor is flooding the cylinder?)
2) It could be some timing issue (not sure about that or also why that happens only when the car is warm)
3) Some compression issue about how the valves might not be closing when the cylinders are hot and so you wouldn't get compression. (As the seatings for the valves heat, they expand and the valves wouldn't sit perfectly).
4) Some fuel pressure or gas vapor issue. (If the car is warm there is some vapor in the gas lines or something).

This is driving me CRAZYYYY!! Suggestions?

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

You said there is spark, but what color is it when your car doesn't start?

Nassimab

Does it matter? I am not sure if I could tell exactly but whitish/bluish... could be wrong though.. I didn't really focus on the color!

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

Yes, it does matter. A white, or blue'ish white spark is enough to fire. An orange or red spark isn't. Double check that. Is your CEL on, either always, or just when the car won't start? Does it work?

Nassimab

Yeah I could double check that.
The CEL is on always. When I took it to the mechanic, the only code that popped out was due to the oxygen sensor for the catalytic converter. Though, I guess that has nothing to do with starting the car.

NotARaCist

iTrader: (1)

Don't trust your mechanic.

https://honda-tech.com/honda-civic-d...lists-1901557/

Pull the code(s) yourself, write them down, reset your ECU, and see what codes return. Give us the before and after lists.

Nassimab

Thanks for the link!
I will try the paper clip thing and check the codes myself! before and after and I will let you know!

Another_Si_Guy

I would suggest touching up all the solder joints on the main relay just in case. Sometimes the solder joints can crack on the opposite side where you can't see them. Its a quick fix and worth a try. My 99 Si was intermittently stalling, and I dumped 300 bucks into a new ignition switch and distributor And found out later I had a faulty solder joint in my main relay. Took 20 minutes to fix including installation time. Also check the ignition switch too. There was a recall for that. I'm sure you've heard about it.

3rdDrawerDown

Its the ignition or main relay. More likely the main relay.

Ive seen it many times since 1998.

Nassimab

So update!

I pulled the CEL codes using the pin connector. I got 45 "Fuel system too rich or lean".

I restarted the ECU, CEL turned off, and tried pulling the codes again, nothing came up (i.e. CEL was on steady). I took the car for a spin for around 10min, and then when I came back, turned it off and tried pulling the codes and again nothing.
However, I did try to turn it back on again and it wouldn't start. And there was no CEL or codes.

I guess it is time to revisit the ignition or main relay? any other idea of why this would happen only when the car has been running before.

Thanks. This is very helpful.

W95civicEXcoupe

Were you able to check the spark color? NotARacist is one of the main people on here, though that screenname makes me shake my head every time I see it. (It is his screenname, though.)

Also.. my car does this same thing. Intermittently; same as yours.

I was given advice that it may be my "starter," though I am not sure if that is correct or not. It only seems affected when hot, and only sometimes.

Though... sometimes, when I turn the key, sometimes it fires right away and sometimes it needs to crank. "Like timing is off" because I do not know a better way to describe it. (Timing is likely ok, as to how it drives. Though my RPMs do skip or "cut out" sometimes when first starting it up.)

White_EG1

First you want to diagnose the main relay.

When you turn the key to ON(ll) do you hear the fuel pump prime? And check engine goes on and off in about 2 seconds?

Try it a couple of times to make sure it is not intermittent.

If you really think it's the main relay atleast bench test it first to see if it's getting proper voltage in the ON(ll) position.

Nassimab

I have not been able to check the spark yet! I need someone to crank the car while I check and my roommate is out of the town. I will do it soon though!

Nassimab

As I posted earlier, I can always hear the fuel pump priming, everytime. also the CEL goes on and off in 2 seconds.

I have attached a pic of the main relay, it is not very clear but there doesn't seem to be any solder defects in it. What would be the best way to test it? I am a student and I am limited on tools but I could get a hold of a multimeter.

Another_Si_Guy

I would still touch up all the solder joints because it can still be cracked on the side where it isn't visable. The cracks or damage aren't always as visable as you think. But my 99 Si was stalling intermittently, And everyone said it was the ignition switch or distrubutor. I touched up the joints on my main relay and never had the problem again. I would still touch it up if I were you. Now that I look at it there does seem to be a few hairline cracks but it's difficult to tell not having the actual relay in front of me. It would be smart to try since you have it out anyway. More times than not, the relay is the problem with this situation.

Snailor Built

Main relays are a dime a dozen, just grab another one and swap it out. See if it still has the same issues. I understand the diagnosing and troubleshooting, however work smarter not harder. If I were you I would borrow one from a friend who drives another honda. Try it out a few times. Voila.

Another_Si_Guy

I mean if he already has it out why not try to repair it and save a couple bucks. Plus buying one means potentially waiting for one to come in the mail, or potentially dealing with the problem again in order to get to the auto parts store. But yeah you are right they're cheap as hell.

Nassimab

Yeah you are right, they are cheap. But I like the troubleshooting work so I am taking the relay with me to Lab tomorrow to retouch all the solders. I am still skeptic that it is the main relay as I hear the fuel pump prime even when the car doesn't start. But it is worth getting that issue out of the way!! Nailing down on the problem.

If the main relay turns out to be fine, I will go to the spark test. I will keep you updated!

Former User

If this^ is true when the engine won't start, then the main relay is a very unlikely culprit.

Test spark quality when the engine will not start. Could be a coil or ICM problem.

Nassimab

So update!

I checked the main relay using a power supply before i retouched the solders, and everything seemed to be working fine. But that is expected because the main relay was not hot.
I looked at the soldering and it also looked fine, with no hairline cracks.
I did retouch the solders though, and put it back in the car. I drove the car yesterday, and today and both days it restarted after i turned it off.
Fingers crossed that the soldering fixed it.
So yeah, it hasn't acted up yet so i can't check spark quality yet.
Will keep you updated.

Another_Si_Guy

I'm glad to hear it. Hope everything works out.

Nassimab

Ok so I am back unfortunately!!
My car started acting up again! so now I know it was not the main relay but something else!!

After it starting acting up, I went to test the spark.
I used a heavy duty wire tester on the end of the plug that connects into the spark plug, and I could see a spark (couldn't tell exactly what the color, it seemed to be whitish to yellowish).

I also tested at the outlet of the distributor (same thing).

I then used an OTC 6589 Electronic Ignition Spark Tester. What they say is that using this spark tester, if you don't see a spark, then the spark is not strong enough. SO I gave it a try. And apparently, I was getting spark every so often. It was not consistent, but kind of random. Does this mean that spark quality is not good.

tamboo

you'll need a coil and icm eventually just buy em now and get it over with.

Advanced Ignition Troubleshooting - Team Integra Forums - Team Integra

Fatdicklegend

I had this same issue about a year ago in my EF. After replacing tons of **** (main relay being one of them) it turned out to be a bad coolant temp sensor. If you have 14 dollars give it a shot.

turbohatch96y7

iTrader: (15)

Spark was random because not all cylinders fire at the same time.

You have spark.
Check for fuel
Check youre timing
Check youre compression when the motor is acting up.

To check for fuel listen for the fuel pump to prime at the rear of the car. Under the back seat. It primes when the key is turned to the on (II) postion

Double check your mechanical timing. If its off a tooth this will make the motor hard to start.

Check the compression. When your motor is warm pistons and rings expand. You could have low compression across two cylinders making the motor hard to start.

Check your batt voltage two. Check during cranking also. Tell me how much the voltage drops